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Women in the Arena
Women in the Arena is the celebration of everyday women living extraordinary lives in plain sight. We seek to inspire, encourage and challenge you to reach for the great heights you're made for.
Women in the Arena
Beyond the Hustle: A Real Conversation for Working Moms with Caren Cooper
🎙 Breaking the Silence: Why Working Moms Need to Support Each Other in Corporate America
In this vulnerable episode, Audra dives deep with Corporate Recovery Specialist, Caren Cooper, to uncover the often hidden and challenging experiences faced by working mothers in corporate America. Caren, who transitioned from corporate life to entrepreneurship, shares her journey through the relentless pressures of "doing it all"—balancing career and motherhood without a support system. Together, they explore why it’s crucial for women to unite, share their stories, and lift each other up in a world that often leaves working moms feeling isolated and overwhelmed. Highlights include:
🌟 The Reality of Corporate Pressures: Unpacking how hustle culture and societal expectations impact working moms
👩‍👧 Balancing Motherhood & Career: The push-and-pull between career ambitions and the guilt of not being “enough” at home
đź’¬ The Power of Community: The importance of connecting, supporting, and speaking honestly with each other
💪 Permission to Be Real: Giving yourself grace and releasing the pressure to “do it all” perfectly
This episode is a rallying cry for working moms to shed societal expectations, embrace their identities, and lean on each other. It’s a must-listen for those seeking connection, authenticity, and a community that understands the unique journey of being a working mom in today’s world.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carencooper/
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***Last thing- This is my WISH LIST of interviews:
• Joan Jett
• Dolly Parton
• Viola Davis
• Ina Garten
Maybe you can help a girl out...***
Go check out all of our episodes on our website at: https://womeninthearena.net/
If you'd like to connect, reach out to me at audra@womeninthearena.net
***One last thing...I have an interview wish list because a girl's gotta dream
- Viola Davis
- Dolly Parton
- Ina Garten
- Joan Jett
Maybe one of you can help me out!
Thank you all for supporting this show and all Women in the Arena!
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me again this week. This week we're going to talk about a topic that we absolutely do not talk about enough. This week we're going to speak with a former Corporate America employee, turned entrepreneur, karen Cooper, and she is a Corporate Trauma Recovery Specialist. Let that sink in for a moment. Corporate America Trauma Recovery Specialist, she's incredibly passionate about helping women heal from the shackles of corporate America. Having been a working mom herself, she knows the firsthand of the trauma behind being in corporate America and how it plays a unique role in the life of a working mom. Through her signature program, unscrew Yourself, she helps women empower themselves and how to harness the power within them so they can show up confidently and authentically and empower their unique and badass selves.
Audra :It is my honor and my pleasure to introduce Karen. Karen, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me here today, karen. I am so excited for you to be here and first of all, right out of the gate, let's talk about the elephant in the room corporate trauma. I don't think anybody has said that out loud. I think we've whispered about it. I think that we might have considered that topic, but why don't you define what's corporate?
Caren :trauma To me. My definition of corporate trauma is this it's partly the hustle culture, so there's a lot of variations to the definition. Okay, it's the hustle culture. It's like the hustle culture, so there's a lot of variations to the definition. Okay, it's the hustle culture. It's like I have to get things done, I have to prove myself and I have to work really hard to get things done and I have to keep going to get things done and I can't sit still because I have to get things done. So that's part of the trauma and that carries over into like life and business and things like that. And the other trauma as a working mom was the ostracizing of being having to leave at five o'clock to pick up my kids from daycare, the being looked up. My kids are 22 and 18. So when when there was not a lot of flexibility in the workplace back then, so the trauma was being expected to literally do it all, be it all and have it all and smile at the end of it all and be okay with it all.
Audra :Let's scale it back and talk about that, and that's what we're actually here to talk about. Is that working moms? We don't. I'm a working mom. My kids now are 27 and 24. I'm a working mom. My kids now are 27 and 24. They're a little bit older than yours. Where it was the culture when my kids were little? Say out loud that, while I love my children and I am so proud of my children, being a mom was not enough for me. I absolutely want and enjoy my career and wanted to have a career, but also wanted to have children, and trying to have both is difficult and I'm not alone. You wanted to have both too. You wanted to have both. An identity that encompasses having a career and children Both an identity that encompasses having a career and children.
Caren :And you had children in an age as same as mine, where there was no support, and it was interesting because I was like I'll climb the corporate ladder. And then when I got pregnant, I was like I don't know. So my thought process shifted a little bit and in my case, I had to go back to work. Like I wasn't sure that I wanted what I you know what I mean. Like, in my case, I was like I want to work, but I don't know that I want to work. I think I want to be home.
Caren :It was like a lot of back and forth for myself and, quite honestly, I resented my ex-husband because he didn't make enough for me to stay home. So there's that. And I went back to work when my daughter was 10 weeks old, and this was a month and a half after 9-11 happened and I live in New York and it was really really, really, really hard and nobody, there was no preparation for going back to work. Like let's ignore, like the working part of it, like having to be a mother and to go back to work. It's a very, regardless of whether you want to or not. There's a lot self-imposed guilt, societal guilt, a lot going on and it's like there's no preparation for that.
Caren :And so, yeah, it was really there was no support in the sense of I didn't feel like I can tell people that I was going to basically lose my crap and maybe in a matter of minutes, like I totally thought my daughter was going to call the woman who owned the daycare center, mom, like I legitimately thought this who was I telling that to? You know what I mean? I had support in the sense of parents and other people to watch her when she got sick every five minutes because she was in daycare so young. But there was no support. Mindset wise and mentally wise of Holy crap, you're a working mom, and even that commercial because you're like my age and I remember I bring home the bacon, I fry it up in a pan.
Audra :I know that very well. I've talked about that many times.
Caren :I hate that commercial and I used to love it, like that's the thing I used to love it, I'm the thing I used to love it. I'm like god, yeah, women can do everything we can, but it's like the expectation is that we should be. My whole problem was is that, as a working mom, I was ostracized if I worked. I was ostracized if I didn't work. Like I was ostracized for being a working mom, and that was that was the part that pissed me off, because it's like you know what, by the way, fun fact that 22 and 18 and standing upright, yay, you know, yeah, and one's a college graduate, one's a student to be a student graduate, and they're good as humans. So my working didn't affect me being a parent in that sense. You know what I mean.
Audra :And I think people know exactly what you mean. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, but there was no one to talk to about this no one. And like you, I was in a career where and still am I made more money than my husband still do. And at one point my husband was a stay-at-home dad and I don't regret it for one minute because, quite frankly, he was at that time, at the ages that they were, he was the better parent to stay at home with them. But there's a part of me that wishes that I could have. I really do. I don't know how well I would have handled it, but I never got the chance to find out, right, you know? So there's that part of me that I wish I could have found out, but there was never that opportunity. And there's also, in this crazy career that I have and I've traveled for my job. Do you know the question that I hate the most when I travel.
Caren :Something about leaving your kids, I'm sure.
Audra :Yes, who's with your kids? Their dad, their dad? Do you know that none of my male counterparts were ever asked that question who's with your kids? But also, when I travel, do you know that I couldn't just because I'm the mom, I couldn't just worry about packing my stuff up and getting ready to go. I had to worry about everything else and then pack myself up and get ready to go.
Audra :Right, I mean, part of that is self-imposed Right, absolutely, and part of it is, you know, my job. Part of it is societal expectations and we're talking about this. We can't win, and we also don't talk to each other about this. And maybe that's part of this conversation is because we don't talk to each other about this, because there is this level of shame and guilt and I don't have it all together. I'm losing my mind and I'm shameful because I'm losing my mind and I'm supposed to have it all together but I don't. And I feel guilty and I feel resentful. But I'm supposed to feel like I've got it all together and I'm supposed to feel grateful, and I'm supposed to feel grateful, I'm supposed to feel all these things, but I don't. So I'm just going to sit here in silence and be in pain by myself, because the expectation is that I'm just supposed to be happy.
Caren :Yes, and what I'm going to do right now is give you permission to not be okay. And what I'm going to do right now is give you permission to not be okay, because guess what Fun fact, let's just be honest, parenting is a trip Period. Yes, hard stuff. Working, not working doesn't freaking matter. Parenting is a. It's like entrepreneurship. It's a trip and a half. It's like a rollercoaster. It's like a ride. You don't know what the hell's gonna happen. It's twists and turns, every freaking place known to man. So give yourself permission to be like you know what. Yeah, today's hard. Today's our day. A lot of emotions, there's a lot of things going on with parenting. It's hard. So I'm gonna hereby give you permission to and not have any shame or guilt surrounding this that the fact that it is hard, because it is from time to time it is.
Caren :My mentor, tracy Litt, said something once on her own podcast when she was talking to someone one of her guests and she said you know, if you're a parent and you haven't felt like you want to tie your kid up once in a while, you're not really a parent. I thought that was the funniest thing ever because it's. You know what what I mean. We're freaking human. Yes, I do mindset work. Yes, this is what I do for a living. You know what I mean. But like we're also freaking human guys. It's hilarious work, parenting and parenting, and it, you know, 22 and 18 is even more. You know.
Caren :My neighbor said this one small kids, small problems, big kids, big problems. Man did that. God is that a whole thing? True, and I think that's part of the problem is that, you know, I 100% had self. So there was the societal influence that, by the way, at the time I didn't realize that's what it was, but there was 100% self-imposed guilt. I would come home right from work and like, spend time with my daughter and play with her and do all these things because I had such guilt not being with her all day that when she was, you know, when she was growing up, she was hard for her to play by herself because I was playing with her all.
Caren :Like I had so much guilt, like I didn't leave her alone and part of my misogast was like I was a latchkey kid, right. So like I was nine years old when my mother went back to work, my brother was 13 and my dad was already working and you know. And so she growing up, and we grew up in a co-op apartment in brooklyn and I literally had a shoelace with a key around my neck and I would come home and I have to call her because you know, I'm, you know, 55 years old. So back in the days of yore we didn't have internet just saying and, and like I had a caller and she knew where I was, and then people in the neighborhood knew who I was. I don't even think they knew my name. They knew, like, who I belonged to. I'm not even joking, like talk about trauma, but long story short short. Like I was a latchkey.
Caren :So because of I was a latchkey and I was a working mom myself, I was like, well, shit, I have to do something, so I have to play with her and I overcompensated you know what I mean.
Caren :And and then the expectation was, and then it was like you know, I would get that too. Like I wouldn't ask, I didn't always travel for work, but like when I would go out, because I worked in the advertising industry and so we would go out, we would have things and whatever, and who's with your kid? And I would have guilt by leaving her. But here's a fun fact. We're also like shoot, we're people like I'm Karen. I may be my kid, I may be mom and I may be you know all these other things, but I'm also Karen and I think a lot of times especially well as working moms we forget that like we're Audra, we're Karen, we're our own individual human and we are allowed to go out and be people. Because if we don't which I didn't, even though I did I was still a massive people pleaser, so I overcompensated in different ways and I burnt myself out and I was miserable.
Audra :So what gives in different ways and I brought myself out and I was miserable. So what gives it's? You know, I've been asking myself that, for really, I know I had this giant exhale because I've asked myself this a lot, especially now because I'm an empty nester. And that's a weird trip too, because when you pour yourself into these two humans for the last 25 plus years and then those two humans have the audacity to grow up and leave and you're like what do I do now? Yes, you know, it's really.
Audra :And even as a working mom, even as a working mom I have a career that I designed to be flexible around these two humans. Right, and I did that in such a way because I am the oldest child of four, also a latchkey kid. I am the oldest of four, the oldest daughter. I am the oldest of four, the oldest daughter, and so it was my job to take care of the younger three. Not only to take care of the younger three, to take care of my parents as well. So I didn't have much of a childhood. I really did not. So I made it my job, with my children, to make sure that they had a childhood. I wanted them to be kids. Yes, I wanted them to be kids. Yes, I absolutely wanted them to be kids, yep, so I guarded that with my life because I knew that childhood was absolutely precious Yep, so I designed my whole career around that very tenet I want you to be kids.
Audra :And I've had a wonderful career, a great career, and I've put up with a lot of crap. Like I said, remember, we started this conversation about corporate trauma and obviously has been become a therapy session, so hopefully everybody has hung on for the ride. So hang in there, guys. Um, so I've, I've designed this whole thing with that in mind, and now they've had the audacity to grow up and leave. So apparently you've done a really good we my husband and I've done a really good job of raising them and they've left.
Audra :And so now I ask the questions of okay, now, what? Right now? Now I, now I get to define myself who, what the heck, what, who, what, where, how and why, and and it's, it's an, it's an interesting thing. And now I'm trying to shed away all of these societal messaging that now I've come to discover, especially through this process of the last four years of doing this podcast, that these societal messaging is all bullshit, quite frankly, yeah, and that a lot of it doesn't fit me. Correct, a lot of it doesn't and, quite frankly, a lot of it doesn't fit all of us Right, and we're all trying to shed this Right and try to define who we are, and I guess that's part of the point of what you do.
Caren :Yes, uh-huh, it is, and I want to. I want to share and thank you for sharing that. But to your point about identity you mentioned you know who you are. Back in 2018, I'd gotten laid off from a job and I was turning 50. And I was like, who the hell am I? I had my worth and I'm sure maybe people can resonate with this. I had my worth very much tied into being a working mom, like I wore like a freaking badge of honor, like a badge of honor, and I'm not unhappy that I did that. But when I lost my job in 2018, I was like, oh crap, who am I If I am not a working mother?
Caren :Part of the work I do is that you are enough and whole as you are and that your worth isn't tied to anything. So I want to, you know and that lends to kind of what you're saying as well but one of my I'm half an empty nester. My daughter is, is not, you know, she's out and about, you know having a life, and my son is graduating high school next week, um, so I'm half an empty nester and I'm separated. So it's like, oh, who's karen? Without like being a parent and like who's karen? What does she like? What does she want to do? What does she? You know what I'm saying. And to your point, audra, like we can look at it from the lens of a crap and and look at it from the lens of negatively, or we can just be like what can you know what? As it is corporate trauma, parenting, all this is an adventure. Why not look at it as an adventure at this point? Right, so there, I just want to say that because, even though you know, you're still, you're still a working mom because you're still like the mom, you're still a mom. Just because they're empty nesters and they're not home doesn't mean that you're not a working mom and the other thing. And then I'll go back to what I do and how I help. But like it takes a village. And that's so true.
Caren :Because, to your point about having your kids, having a childhood, like I said in advertising, when I was working, there was at the time, there wasn't flexibility in the workplace, but I, like you, was like my kids want, you know, because I had a great childhood, because I was outside playing all the freaking time, like I had it. You know what I mean. I didn't have to, like you, I was outside playing and I went up to Monticello in the summers and playing, you know, man, on the stupid shop. It was fantastic, you know what I mean. So my kids were like you know, and I live in a neighborhood like that you go ring the bell, you go play outside, like people think I'm insane. I'm like, no, you go play outside, like that's how it works. You come in when the lights go down. You know, lights go on, like that's how I grew up. So, but my kids but I put my kids were in things. So my daughter started off in dancing school and then they she was in softball and he was in baseball. My children, but it takes a village because I couldn't leave to get them. So other people, like other sports parents, were helping us out all the time and that's how my kids were able to have a childhood in a sense of being able to do extracurriculars because other people were helping. And so, even though I didn't have support in terms of how I was feeling per se, at least I had support in other areas. So that made up for it.
Caren :But struggling back to now what I do, I realized that the societal expectations like you in the last few years. The societal, what we've been fed and all of these things are transferring over into so many aspects of our life. And so I'm an entrepreneur now, full time because of the pandemic. My contract with my finance position ended when COVID hit and I realized as an entrepreneur I carried over a lot of that stuff into my entrepreneurship the working so hard, the hustling, the wait. I work for myself now so I have no discipline to actually sit and do anything because I was working for someone else and I had the discipline when I was working for someone else to do things, but like when you work for yourself, you don't have to. I didn't, I'm being honest.
Caren :And also the trauma of I mean, you know, a lot of our traumas are from their childhood, right, and so they come into play in the workplace. So my people pleasing and my codependency was 100% in the workplace, right. So I was afraid I was going to lose my job. I was working and that's where the proving energy comes in and all that stuff. So the hustle culture is fed to you and then you're codependent and you're people pleasing. Add that on top of it and you work. I was working till one, two o'clock in the morning and I wasn't getting overtime or getting compensated for it and I was taking time away from my kids and there was guilt and there was shame and there was and there was this push and pull. And so now it's my mission to a talk about this and be honest about it.
Caren :And, fun fact, I am not knocking corporate at all, by the way, I'm not but it's who do you? You know, I wrote a post about this the other day right, when you're a business owner and your business isn't working, you hire people to help with your business. Right, when you know you hire different people to help you with different things. Who do you hire to help you with you? That's where I come in, because the shame, the guilt, the self-doubt, the imposter syndrome are people going to find me out? Right, because you're coming from corporate, you're turning into an entrepreneur or you have a side hustle. I had a side hustle when I was working in corporate America. That was the other thing. I had a side hustle when I was working in corporate america. That was the other thing. I had.
Caren :This I told someone working in corporate america and it's like wait a minute, do you have time? Are you going to be able to do all the things. And it's like, first of all, hi, I'm a mom, so you damn freaking right, I can do all the damn things. Just based off the fact that I birthed two kids, you know how much information is on. Is it a mom's brain just in and of itself, just because that's that's part of what we do? That that's not societal. Like I realize this.
Caren :My ex, like I, would say you know, do you know when they need doctors? No, because he didn't think about it. It didn't make him a bad father. You know what I mean. So I want to I've always been one to buck the trend too. If you can't tell by listening, right now I want to. You know, throw everything on a dime and be like you know what. No, we need to take care of you. You have this trauma, that that maybe in your childhood that carried over into your working. And then you know the work-life balance, which there wasn't any. You know the, the, the, the. You know inflexibility, the freedom of being able to do what you want when you want, but also not having the discipline to do what you want when you want, but also not having the discipline to do what you want when you want All the mindset crap, the mind fuckery, I couldn't help that. One comes out and how do you deal with all that? And that's where I come in. That's what I help you with.
Audra :You help make that transition of and actually unlearn everything that we learned, especially the, this generation of women, because most of my audience are Gen Xers Actually, most of my audience is a reflection of me. We were a bunch of Gen Xers that were raised in the 70s and 80s. A lot of us were latchkey kids. A lot of us are, the are overachievers because, honestly, that is what we were trained to be. We're the generation of take your daughter to work day. We went to work with our dads on that day and they didn't set up cupcakes and and fun things to do for us on that day. We literally went to work with our dads and sat next to our dads as they did their job At least, that's what I did with my dad and I sat at the desk with my dad and watched him do his job, which was my dad had a corporate job and it was a lot of calls, it was a lot of meetings and it was a lot of what I do today, if you want to know the truth.
Audra :And that is what I watched him do, and I think that that is a lot of what my female colleagues and counterparts did. They watched their dad do this, and so we just emulated them. We didn't know a different way, we weren't taught a different way, so we emulated what our fathers did. But then also we decided to become moms and we meshed the two together Because we didn't know another way. And so you come in and go. We have to unlearn all of that, because what we took on was two roles. We meshed on two roles, we took two roles on our shoulders and we expected them to be able to survive in the same space, exactly the way they were fed to us, and expect them to play nice together and exist. No wonder we're tired.
Caren :Right, I mean I mean and and I I went to to my dad was a photographer, so I would go with him and then. But also like when there was time off from school and my parents couldn't take the time off right, because working moms you only get a certain amount of time. You know, working parents very you know, generally get a certain time, balance of time off. I would go to work with my mom. My mom was a secretary for the federal government, so I was typing all the time. You know what I mean. So I was, I was at work, like when school break was happening, I was. It was not even just taking your daughter to work day, it was like there's nobody. You know what I mean. It was, it was some of that as well. And so, yes, so I come in and and and re literally rewire every program from what you currently are and, by the way, there's nothing wrong with you at the moment, you're whole and enough as you are. I wanted to say that outright Okay, nobody's broken, none of that is happening.
Caren :It's a lot of when I talk about trauma. It's okay, it's stems from even. You know, you're a little kid and you wanted to go play with someone on the playground and they said, no Right. And then you're like, oh, they don't like me, so you made meaning out of it. They don't like me and they don't. This and and that you know made you feel maybe unworthy and not enough, and that carried on to pretty much adulthood, not pretty much adulthood, okay.
Caren :So that's what I mean when I say trauma. So it's like the event that happened and the meaning that we gave it. The same thing happened. So therefore, like in my case, I was a people pleaser and I was codependent because of things that happened, that I made meaning out of it, and so, therefore, the societal expectations, I carried the weight of that and I felt like the need to do all of that. And then, oh my God, and then I didn't speak my mind in corporate right. So when I was working corporate, whatever it was told to me I would do, even though I didn't necessarily love it, I had an instance once in a job where my review was poor and it was based off of things that I wasn't even doing. So half the stuff that my review was about was things that I wasn't doing, and they didn't even know the things that I was doing.
Audra :You didn't say anything to the contrary.
Caren :I did. However, I was still meek about it. So I can't be confident in my abilities, I can't set boundaries, I can't speak up because I need this job and I think you know what I mean and maybe you can resonate with that. But like that's what I'm talking about. So, and the expectation that I bring home the bacon, I fry it up in a pan and you know I even got once on the baseball field, like the nerve, you know, cause it's you know, I even got once on the baseball field, like the nerve, you know, because you know I live in Staten Island and it's like, you know, being a working mom was shunned. It was, you know, shunned. You know what I mean and that was told to me. So it's like, and so I don't have the wherewithal, right, and I'm sure this is what I'm saying A lot of us don't have the wherewithal to not at their other people's opinions and the judgment and all of that that goes on means nothing about us at all and that we're not broken, we're not anything, we are whole and enough as we are.
Caren :So when I talk, we understand where all of the stuff came from, right, and then we get to the core of it. And then, once we get to the core of it and understands all data, then we're like, okay, we're going to rewire and reprogram. So now you're coming out. You know what? Now I can speak my mind. Now I have the confidence to speak my mind. Now I have the confidence to set boundaries. Now I have the discipline to sit and do a power hour by myself and get my work done, knowing that this is going to bring me the freedom and the desire and the life that I want to live. So societal expectations be damned, and whatever it says, all the computer, whatever they call the people like George, and all that, because everybody has always something to say all the time. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
Caren :And also, guys, as a working mom, you love your kids. Whether or not you want to tie them up on it, you know, every once in a while or not, we love our kids and we love our kids fiercely. That's enough. That's enough. There's no shame, there's no guilt. You know doing it to yourself or otherwise, that's what working with me will bring you also, and the awareness that may you know what, it may come up from time to time, but you know what, it's no big deal. Okay, cool, it's just data what's happening in my life, to understand that this is what's going on. You know what did my boss say to me that pissed me off? Maybe, or you know what my boss will say something that pissed me off. Who cares? Because office politics is office politics. It is what it is. It's always going to be there.
Caren :But what if you have the confidence to say you know what, I hear what you're saying, I understand this, but can we work together in this capacity? Right, even if you still like, in your case, you're still working. You know it's just how do you show up? Just show up, not have this weight on you of like shame, guilt, self-doubt and people are going to find me out, all that stuff, but just show up and be like you know what? Hey, I'm bold. There's confident, unique me. Make it as it is. I'm fabulous, Love it. Thank you very much.
Audra :As I have gotten older and as I've been meeting women over the last four years, like yourself, I've started to basically it has shocked me that it has led me on this journey of self-discovery and peeling back layers like you're describing. And I've come to the realization is that people are always going to judge you. People are always going to talk about you, they're always going to think you're too much of this and not enough of that, and they're always going to have something to say about you. They might as well judge you for how you actually are, rather than who you think you should be, rather than who you think you should be, rather than who you pretend to be, rather than who you send as your representative. So I have been making it a very concerted effort to make sure that I show up as me, speak my mind when I need to, and speak up for myself when necessary Right, and, more importantly, speak up for others who haven't yet discovered their voices.
Audra :All of that is scary. I'm not going to tell you that it's not because it is because it is very uncomfortable after a lifetime of trying to be what I thought I was supposed to be Exactly. Once you step out of that box. It's terrifying but absolutely necessary, and it's the most authentic thing I have ever done. And how do you feel? Most of the time? Really good and petrified, yeah.
Caren :But worth it. That's gorgeous and that, my friend, is exactly the point. Okay, that is exactly the point, because here's a fun fact when you, our bodies and minds are designed to keep us safe in the same. So the minute you move the needle in any direction, the mind is going to be like danger, danger, danger. Let's work to get her back the same. The uncomfortableness is continuing to do the different. I also teach you how to deal with that, by the way, side note. But to your point, audra, I'm so excited and proud of you for doing that exactly the way you are, because it's embracing the unknown, it's being scared and doing it anyway Because the fear, it's a beautiful thing, because it means your body's working the way it's designed to work, but it's obviously what you're destined to do at the moment. So you continue to do it and stay in the uncomfortable, because that's where the beauty is in the uncomfortable, in the unknown Even when it's greeted with silence.
Audra :And I'll give you an example. Yesterday I did something very uncomfortable. I'm in a leadership group and yesterday was the first time where we got to introduce ourselves, and it was very informal introduce ourselves, and it was not what do you do, do, but what's a fun fact about yourself? And I wrestled with it and I'm like is this, when I tell them what I do outside of these walls? And I thought, well, if not now, they're gonna find out. So I might as well rip the band-aid off. And so I explained to them who I was, where I live and, by the way, I have a podcast and crickets lead balloon.
Audra :The response was the silence was deafening and I thought you would have thought that I had said something horrifying, and I thought they either are stunned or they're shocked that I put myself out there like that on a regular basis and because the silence was deafening. I think it was the latter, that they were shocked, that I put myself out there like that on a regular basis. And I have to go with that because this is scary. And for those that don't think that this is scary, it is that this is scary, it is.
Audra :I have to tell you every single time before I record, even though I've been doing this for four years. I get a little anxiety every single time because and Karen will attest to this this this is very, this is hard, because this is vulnerable and because I meet with each and every one of my guests before record. And I said, we have to do this with transparency and vulnerability, or else it doesn't work and I'm putting a piece of me and Karen's putting a piece of her, and we're standing out here vulnerably naked every single time but it's worth doing, yes, and the thing is, it's not the norm, no, and that's why you were met with crickets, right, and that's why it's like when people judge them.
Caren :I think, by the way, all judgment is self-judgment, but, that being said, people are not used to people being vulnerable and honest, because it's the fake it till you make it right. It's that we've all heard that it's the fake it till you make it. And, like we talked to bring it back to talking about earlier, we're working moms and we're supposed to try it all up in a bone. We're supposed to be happy about it. And one of the things I think is very interesting in the last few years is the fact that people are just like I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore, and they are being more out there and they are being more honest and they are being more fruitful in the fact of you know what? Yeah, this shit is hard from time to time. You know I mean you don't want to put. You know I'm not going to get into, I was going to go on a tantrum, I'm not going there. But you know, and I think you know, we live in a system, we live in a world where everything is so quick and sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. You know what I mean and people just will say what they have to say good, bad or indifferent. And the way I look at it now is like you know what God freaking bless For real, like you know what. How cool is that? Like we live in a world where that could happen. Do people need to calm down from time to time? Sure, but whatever, you know what I mean, I don't need to let it affect me. So, like your point, you didn't let the crickets you know, maybe there's a little bit, but it's like it didn't stop you from saying it. You felt the need to say it and you said it. And right now you know mental health I'm not talking, you know. Mental health is, is like, is very much talked about a lot more, and I just think women actually don't think I know women need to support one another. Okay, we really need to support one another, because one of the things I'm working through because my you know it's it's your healing evolving growing. Is it no ed at the end? It's your healing evolving growing. There's no E-D at the end. It's an I-N-G, it's an ongoing, ever going process Was the fact that, like how ostracized I was as a working mom, like the guilt that I had, and like this time of year, I see a lot of posts about the fact that it's the end of the school year.
Caren :Here in New York we still move school till the end of June and the parents you know, I spoke with the LinkedIn yesterday about you know, working moms. I see you, I feel you, I know you're trying to take things off. There's a million things to do when you go to your kids and blah, blah, blah and, like you know, give yourself grace and take one step at a time. And I was like I'm obsessed with this post. Thank you for putting that out there. I loved it Because it's like again giving the, because we try to be everywhere old and I did this. I was counting my days, like how many PTO days did I have? How many PTO days did my ex-husband have? All the things for the school years, because I never wanted to miss those types of moments and I thankfully did it in some cases. That just came up on.
Caren :My memory of Facebook memory was my daughter's. I forgot there was some sort of event for my daughter. I think it was her senior year in Duke High School that I was going to miss because of Barry Manilow concert. I'd be like go to Barry Manilow concert, you'll love him go. But I had guilt about going to the Barry Manilow concert because I was a working mom and I was like you know what I'm saying? There was a lot of that push and pull and all that stuff and like.
Caren :But here I am on a podcast talking about that and I didn't and like I think these are and I put it on Facebook and people are like no, go to Barry Manilow, there was no shame in it. And that made me feel so good because I was like oh my God, and that's where we are. I think we really just need to support each other and love on one another and be like people want to be seen and heard and just like yeah, I see you and I feel you and I understand you. Some days it's easy, some days it's not, and even in your case, empty nester or not, we are all going through some sort of a transition. How do we handle that transition? You know what I mean? And when we have people like myself who can help, or just even people that you can just talk to. How great is that?
Audra :Yeah, bottom line is that we need each other Right and we need to stop being silent and stoic, because there's no stoicism in motherhood, there's no stoicism in being working moms. The age of that is over. This is hard To quote, karen. This shit is hard, it is difficult. We cannot do this by ourselves, cannot do this by ourselves.
Audra :And here's a not so well-known secret, or one that I have not talked about, is that, yes, I'm a working mom. When my kids were older, my husband went back to work. I continued to travel. I could not have done my job without my friends. I cannot tell you how many times my friends picked my kids up from school, took them to sports, fed them. I could not have done it without them. I could not have done it without them. So lean on each other, talk to each other. Hell, if you need to talk to me, reach out to Karen. Don't keep it to yourselves anymore. Don't pretend you got it all down because I didn't. I still don't. Karen doesn't. She still doesn't Talk to each other, please. Don't. Karen doesn't. She still doesn't Talk to each other, please. That's what this particular conversation is all about. That's what Karen's entire business is about. So, karen, before I let you go. I want to make sure that everybody knows how they can connect with you. Where can they reach you?
Caren :You can reach me on Facebook. Karen Shagren, s-c-h-a-g-r-e-n. Cooper. By the way, I'm C-A-R-E-N fun fact so if you're going to look for Kate, don't do that. And my LinkedIn is the same thing. Karen C-A-R-E-N, s-c-h-a-g-r-e-n. Cooper, friend me and when you friend me, orta's podcast, so I know who you are and then we can chat from there.
Audra :I will make sure, as always, all of these links are in the show notes. So look in the show notes. That's where all the links will be, so you'll link them directly from there. Go to the show notes links. Make it easy. Karen, you have been a delight. This has been a wonderful conversation, as always. We typically plan something ahead of time and it goes a different direction, but it usually goes a better direction than even we planned. So, karen, thank you so much for joining me today. I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you and absolutely loved our conversation today and thank you.
Caren :This was. I'm obsessed with what you're doing, with this podcast and like in the world, so thank you for what you're doing and this podcast and like in the world. So thank you for what you're doing and thank you for having me today. This was amazing.
Audra :Well, thank you again. Thank you so much for your time and thank you for being here. Thank you and thank you all once again for being here, and we'll see you again next time.
