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Women in the Arena
Women in the Arena is the celebration of everyday women living extraordinary lives in plain sight. We seek to inspire, encourage and challenge you to reach for the great heights you're made for.
Women in the Arena
Peek Behind the Curtain: Secrets of a Political Candidate with Dr. Wendy Davis
🎙️ Curious about political engagement and the intricacies of election campaigns? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dr. Wendy Davis, a former Utah House of Representatives candidate and accomplished political science PhD from the University of Utah. Wendy shares her vast knowledge and experience, shedding light on the critical importance of informed voting and political socialization.
🔍 Highlights:
- 🌟 Political Awareness: Discover how family and educational institutions shape political awareness and learn about the significant surge in political interest, especially among women.
- 💪 Women in Politics: Explore the societal conditioning that influences women's perceptions of their qualifications and ambitions. Wendy and I reflect on our personal experiences and the challenges of overcoming deeply ingrained biases.
- 🗳️ Campaign Insights: Get an insider's look into the strategic manipulation and power plays behind political campaigns, and the influence of political parties on elections. Understand the unique challenges faced by third-party candidates
- 🌱 Youth Engagement: Learn about the importance of engaging younger generations in politics and ensuring every vote counts.
✨ Join us for this enriching episode that promises to challenge your perceptions and inspire action in your political journey.
https://www.wendydavisutah.com/
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***Last thing- This is my WISH LIST of interviews:
• Joan Jett
• Dolly Parton
• Viola Davis
• Ina Garten
Maybe you can help a girl out...***
Go check out all of our episodes on our website at: https://womeninthearena.net/
If you'd like to connect, reach out to me at audra@womeninthearena.net
***One last thing...I have an interview wish list because a girl's gotta dream
- Viola Davis
- Dolly Parton
- Ina Garten
- Joan Jett
Maybe one of you can help me out!
Thank you all for supporting this show and all Women in the Arena!
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me again this week. This week we're going to have a very exciting and timely conversation, with the political races quickly heating up as it is going to be voting season soon. My guest this week is ringside seat expert. My guest is Dr Wendy Davis. Dr Davis has a PhD and she is a former candidate for the Utah House of Representatives. She holds a PhD in political science from the University of Utah and her research interests are the educational policy, political socialization and state and local government. This is very near and dear to her heart and, like I said, she had a ringside seat in her own political campaign. She's here to share her experience and her passion with the political scene, to help educate us as we go to the voting polls. It is my pleasure and my honor to introduce to you Wendy Wendy. Thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show.
Wendy :Wendy Wendy, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show, thank you.
Audra :Thank you so much for having me. I am very excited to be here. I did lots of homework to prepare for you to be here because this is a really very important subject. I don't think that preparing for voting has ever been more important. I will tell you quite frankly I mean, I'm almost 53 years old and before, eight years ago, nine years ago, I don't think I ever prepared for voting.
Audra :I don't think I ever did homework for voting, and I know that that's shameful, but I don't think I ever took it seriously because I don't think I understood. I didn't understand the systems, I didn't understand the responsibility and I didn't understand the repercussions. And I think I'm not alone, I think I'm in good company. But I did a lot of homework to prepare, to speak to you intelligently, and you, I think you wrote a book because you share not only do you share some of the sentiments of that, and you are educated in this. You had an education of your own, being a political candidate, learning firsthand of how much we don't know. So let's peel back the layers a little bit and let's first start with me and my admissions, and me speaking for a lot of Americans as to why, initially, we didn't understand voting, our responsibility of voting or even the repercussions until maybe eight or nine years ago. Why is that, yeah?
Wendy :absolutely Well. I think that's really common. There is a sub-sub topic in political science called political socialization, and it's really how you as a person usually a young person come into politics. How do you understand politics, how do you learn about voting, how do you know about elections? And it shouldn't surprise anyone that most of that socialization comes from your family. Also, it can come from institutions like school or trusted adults that are around you, but I think there's a lot of.
Wendy :For a lot of people, it's just not something culturally that they've experienced before, and for a lot of women in particular not just women, but a lot of people the 2016 election changed things for them, and you know the results of that election, where Donald Trump triumphed over Hillary Clinton, were great moments for some people and unbelievably devastating for other people, and I have met dozens and dozens of women who said I never really paid attention until then. And then I started to pay attention and in 2018, it occurred to me you know, on that ballot it was a midterm election and we have, you know, school board candidates and city council and the assessor and all of these offices. Do you even know what that person does? And so I put out a message on my neighborhood Facebook page. I'm like I'm having two nights and you're welcome to bring your lawn chair and come to my house and I'm going to throw up on the screen. We're going to look at the ballot, we're going to talk through every race, I'm going to explain what every office does and then you can bring your ballot and fill it out. I will not tell you who to vote for. I will skip the big ones, the senatorial election, you all know that. But let's talk about what all these offices do. And people showed up at my house with their ballots and they said no one's ever explained it to me before and I thought that doesn't surprise me.
Wendy :I think you know how do you learn If you don't learn through school or you learn through your family? You don't know what you don't know. And another thing that we know about political socialization we know that younger voters 18 to 25, I don't care how great they think they are they vote with the lowest voter turnout of all the age groups. They are sometimes the most enraged and passionate, but it doesn't show up why. There's a lot of reasons why they're still mobile. They don't have permanent residency, they don't know how a city council, how garbage pickup, how a streetlight, how you know the school board raising a bond, impacts them directly. And so until you start to have some of those experiences as a taxpayer, or children are in school or something happened to me there are different things that make us pay closer attention. So your experience is normal, it's perfectly normal, and the great news is you're engaged at a different level now and you do research and you're a little bit more involved in the political process.
Audra :I am very involved through research, educating myself, and, even if I didn't want to be, my children forced the issue Because in 2016, my kids were 16 and just about 18. So my son was just about the age to vote, but he was graduating from high school. He really didn't care. He's getting ready for college. Nobody cared. They did not care at the moment, and then their minds exploded.
Audra :So then, when it came time to the 2020 election, they were like, oh no, they came home with booklets and they poured over them for days and then keep in mind, this was all during COVID, so we were all really comfy together. So they arranged it and they said on this day, we're going to sit down at the kitchen table and we're going to walk through this booklet line by line by line together to make sure that we all understand what is going on. And, first of all, I was completely overwhelmed and, second of all, I was incredibly proud and I didn't know which one I was feeling more of at the time. Didn't know which one I was feeling more of at the time. So I was really. I was thrilled that this had happened to encourage them to take this much attention. But then it also made me feel oh my gosh. It took this many years to make me stand up and pay attention and to have this level of education which, like I said, is exactly one of the reasons why we're having this conversation today, because by the time this airs, it should be about July and we are going to be in the thick of it. You're going to be bombarded by political ads, you're going to probably be getting phone calls, there's going to be loads of confusion. You're not going to know which end is up.
Audra :So Wendy is here to give you a ringside seat as to what's going on, what is the back end of what happens in politics, and how to help us navigate through the noise, and how to help us navigate through the noise. So first we're going to talk a little bit about her story. Now, as I mentioned to you, this is her livelihood, this is what sets her soul on fire. She's always had this heart for politics and she wrote an amazing book that is the Fight you Don't See, and I have an excerpt, a couple of quotes that I'm going to read to you from her book. And this is I'm going to read to you a quote right now which is from when she was a page in the Illinois State Senate. Yes, correct, and you had just met Mr Brady. You were on the floor for the Brady bill.
Wendy :If I, if I remember correctly, when reading this, reading this passage, sarah Brady was there to speak before the body advocating for the Brady bill.
Audra :And and this was when it really set your soul on fire and you're like I'm going to run for office because you tell the story, that you're like, oh, this is, this is a historical moment, I need to mark this somehow. And you, you said, you grabbed a Senate calendar and you asked him to sign it and he you know he was limited ability to to speak and obviously he was in a wheelchair, but he graciously agreed to it. And that's when it sparked this passion for it. And this is the quote from the book that, when I read this, this honestly, this pulled me into your book. And here's the quote. It's at the time I didn't know how the fight would look, but something about that small interaction with Mr Brady inspired me, as if those few words and fleeting moments he had instilled in me the determination of an advocate. I knew it wouldn't be easy, but if I fought hard enough, maybe I could make a real change in the world.
Audra :I think many people go into politics feeling that same way. I'm going to go into politics and I'm going to change the world. I'm going to make a difference in this world. I'm going to make a difference for my neighbors, my community, because they need it, and that probably was the same for you. So I know that you went in District 45, state of Utah, went in and you're like I'm smart, I'm multi-degreed, I know what I'm doing here. I am, let me make a difference. I'm going to let you take the story from there, yeah sure.
Wendy :Well, there was a lot of time that passed from that 19-year-old who got to meet Mr Brady and for those who are listening who don't know who Mr Brady is, he was Ronald Reagan's press secretary and during the assassination attempt, on March 30th I think it was the 30th 1981, mr Brady was struck by a bullet and he took a bullet to the head and was forever changed. And so, you know, as a young person, I watched that not in real time, obviously, on television, but the news stories stuck with me and so it was something very important in my life and even though I identified as a Democrat, it didn't matter. He was a hero to me, didn't matter what party he could have come from Mars, and that was just such so powerful to me. And there's actually a picture. There was a Senate staffer who took a picture of us, unbeknownst to me, and it is dear to me and I just have this look of admiration as I'm sitting down and talking to him and it's just so precious. So a lot happened between 19 year old me at 2020. So you know, there's never a great time to run.
Wendy :I felt like I needed to be credentialed. I never felt like I was good enough. I had been told you need to be on city councils or you need to be so active in your community. If you don't have 50 volunteers, you're never going to make it. If you don't have X amount of money, you're never going to make it. And I'm like you know what? I think I can do this, and so I had this job. I traveled all the time. I got a job that was located in Salt Lake City area, where I live, so I didn't have to travel. I finished my PhD, I turned my dissertation in and I'm like okay, what's next? Like literally, I turned the dissertation and the next week I started telling people I was going to run for office and I showed up at county convention and they're like who are you? We don't know who you are. I'm like, yeah, I know, I travel, I sell software, I'm a busy woman, but I'm here, I'm ready to go. And so I knew in my heart this is what I want to do. And I was ready. I was ready to go.
Wendy :And so I declared that I wanted to run as a Democrat against the 10-year incumbent in my district. I'd done my research. I knew the district was flippable. I had a PhD in political science, I know how to do statistical analysis. I'd watched the trends over three elections. I saw it turning more and more toward the center and I saw candidates chipping away at that margin every single time and I thought, if I'm committed and I can run a solid campaign, I think I might have a chance against this guy. And so that's what I set my sights on.
Wendy :And then COVID hit and it disrupted like there's so much that was disruptive four years ago in 2020. And can you imagine trying to run your first campaign I have no idea what I'm doing anyway. Fundraising stops. There's no door knocking. I don't really like we don't know if the world's going to stop rotating on its axis and for how long. And I'm like all right, I'm going to do it. And so did you know, ran this campaign and my only goal was to not lose in a landslide and we started picking up momentum and suddenly people were recognizing me and had heard about me, and people I didn't even know were like we're voting for you. I'm like, really, I was like you know me. And then, and it was really silly silly because I'm sending out emails, I'm sending out texts, I have a social media presence, I'm sending out mailers. I'm knocking on doors.
Wendy :Of course, people are eventually going to know who I am, and so, yeah, so the book is about.
Wendy :It's my life story, but it is told through this lens of what happened during my campaign running as a Democrat in the state of Utah against a very popular incumbent during COVID and facing challenges that I never dreamed I would face Challenges within my own party, challenges with power structures, people who control the money, people who control the politics, people who control religion you know all of these power structures and I'm like I got to write about this because nobody talks about this Nobody. No candidates write books because they either win and they're busy or they lose and they fly away into the ether and never to be heard about again. But the things that happened I knew were important enough and generalizable enough that my story would be relatable enough that people would see themselves in it. Right, and I'm like there are not enough firsthand political narratives written by average people written by average people. So that's why I sat on it for a couple of years. I'm like I really feel compelled that I need to tell what happened, and that's where we are.
Audra :Well, we're going to continue to go through your book and we're going to educate. Like I said, the running theme is to educate the audience on how the political system works, but also to help the audience see themselves in you. I'm going to read another quote from your book because, as I had mentioned to you before we got on the air, some of these quotes I underwrote, I highlighted because they gutted me, because they rang true for me and they made me sit with it for a minute and go oh, I need to work on this. So I'm going to read this and hopefully not cry through it. So are you ready, wendy? I am Okay.
Audra :Like so many women, I doubted my credentials no-transcript thought and maybe I would be qualified to be a candidate. At the center of this mindset was the idea that I had to earn it. Public office wasn't something you stumbled into. You showed your commitment, invested time and eventually earned the honor of serving your constituents. Over the years, I realized that this mindset is so.
Audra :Female Women are conditioned to believe that we must be qualified, we need to pay our dues and put in the work and maybe, if we work hard enough, we can have our shot. Men rarely think this way. This gutted me, jumped off the page, I highlighted it and sat with it for a moment and cried a little Because it was too true. And this was you thinking about it in a political sense. I thought about it in my professional sense and actually this came. This quote came ringing to my front of my cortex today, an hour ago, in a conversation that I had, and I thought I got to fix this. I've been conditioned. I got to fix this. I cannot exist like this anymore. And if this is how I've been conditioned and this is how I walk through the world, this is also how I'm voting.
Wendy :It's a lot, it really is a lot, and it took me to be a woman of a certain age to realize what we've all been conditioned to believe. And I don't know if you're familiar with this campaign, but you should definitely look it up. There's a campaign that Mattel and Barbie is running right now and it's just a series of little girls and I mean it gives me chills just to think about it in the worst possible way by the age of five, more people are Googling is my son special? But they're not asking about their daughters by the age of seven. They're pushing me toward these types of books and not these types of books, and you can't blame things on society in general, but there's a certain amount of conditioning that happens. But I think for us as women you know, we, we at least. I can't speak for all women, I can only speak for myself. I was under this impression that, like all right, I've got to work, work toward this in a certain direction, and that was my true ambition was to be the first woman governor of Illinois and it was very intentional to get that job as a 19 year old.
Wendy :The next year I got the job in the bureaucracy. I don't write about that in the book. And I was hustling a job. I had a student work, study job, and I'm asking everybody who walks through the door do you know anyone in Springfield, illinois, that might give me a job? I was like I do, actually, and so I called them. He gave me a list of managers and this is before the internet right In the late eighties and I called the least intimidating person name on the list. It was a person named Val. I didn't know. Val was a man. Val answered the phone and he's like, sure, come down to Springfield for an interview. So I take all the little money I have and put gas in my car and I drive down there.
Wendy :And I researched everything I could about the Department of Natural Energy and Resources and he asked me all kinds of questions and he says I have one question for you what drives you? You are 20 years old, you put on a business suit, came down from Shorey Illinois to sit in my office. What drives you? And I said it's very simple. I don't want to live in poverty like my family has. I want a better life and I think I'm smart enough to do it and I want to break that cycle. And he's like you've got a job. I mean, what 20 year old does that? And I mean I was much braver than I would have been, but it was. It was that whole.
Wendy :And whether you know, and I've been a woman in tech my whole career too and and always conditioned I've worked for amazing employers. So I've never felt treated this way by any of my employers. But I know that women in tech struggle to be seen as engineers and developers, right, so yeah. But I don't know one man who's like. I wonder if I'm qualified to run for the state legislature. Do I have the right degree? Did I build my pedigree correctly? Do I have that? I just don't know those people. Maybe men think that way, but I'll tell you, I've met over 100 female candidates and, with encouragement, they will run when asked directly. When someone says you can do this, I believe in you. Sometimes that's all it takes, and I don't know what that says about our culture and our society, but I think that you, I other women, we can be the ones that tap them on the shoulders that you got this. I believe in you. You don't need anything else but to be you. That's all you need.
Audra :Well, let's fast forward a little bit to you being in the campaign. You're in the thick of this campaign. You have raised your hand, you're like I'm running, I'm doing it, and the moment you get into the thick of it, you start challenging the systems. In the book you start writing about how you are immediately challenging their data. You're talking about and you just mentioned you're a woman in tech and whether you are installing the tech or not, if you are a tech executive, if you are out there selling the tech, if you are an account executive for the tech, you need to at least know how it works. So you have to have some level of knowledge of how data works.
Audra :So in your book, you are saying that they're presenting data to you, calculations in regards to how they're trying to support certain races and certain candidates, and you're pushing on them and saying how'd you come up with these calculations? And they're saying, well, we just did. And you keep pushing on them and saying, well, how? And they're like well, we just did. And you said something that in your book that started to really startle me and you said that this is how the races are run and how they're determined. Is that they're run behind closed doors? Tell us a little bit about that. What do you mean? That they're run behind closed doors?
Wendy :yeah, I think there's. You know, I feel like I was a bit of a political anomaly. I wasn't recruited, I wasn't vetted. I'm like I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna put my name on the ballot.
Wendy :There's a lot of other times when there's a lot of strategic thought that goes into who is the right candidate. Is this district one that is flippable? Who is the incumbent? Who could we get to run against them? What is the probability of just a random Democrat being in the race? All things being equal, what is their probability? What if we get a qualified Democrat and running that?
Wendy :So there's a lot of strategy that happens, more so than I think most people would think. The average public, I don't think, realizes that. They probably think that for big Senate candidates or presidential candidates or something, but I think even at local races there's a lot of strategy that happens, and the scene that you described, that was a power move, meaning people who have the information and who want to shield that information and protect it have power over you. So I was constantly trying to use my credentials and my intellect and my knowledge of statistical data and political data specifically to say like I know enough how to poke holes in this. I'm asking you to validate this for me, and the refusal to do that was continuing to have power over me.
Wendy :Right, and you know, political institutions parties being a very big political institution that all of us are familiar with have a tremendous amount of power. Parties can decide who gets on a ballot. Parties can keep people off of the ballot to meet their own needs, and those are the back door deals that I don't think people realize. Even somebody sometimes even making it to the ballot is very interesting. And in Utah we have a caucus system which means that individuals in their house district a very small number of people in Utah are really making the decisions because they're the ones that show up. We've got a very by the time this airs. It should have been decided in June. We'll have a primary. There's like seven Senate candidates on the Republican side on the ballot and the amount of money going into those campaigns strategic thought. That's happening. I just don't think people know that that is part of it.
Audra :I'm going to share just a little bit more bad news about this system before we actually start talking about some good news, because there are things that we can do about it, that we have to do about it, that is our responsibility to do about it, because we can't, we cannot, continue to to allow the system to drag us, because the reality is, this is our system, and I think that we've, through confusion, through, like you said in the beginning, through social adoption or not, it's gotten a little out of control, but we have absolutely have the power to get it back in control, gotten a little out of control, but we have absolutely have the power to get it back in control.
Audra :I'll share one more bit of bad news, because it jumped off the page at me and I was like, oh my gosh, I have I have to mention this because this blows my mind when you were sitting across the table from the Democratic leader of the Utah House. You're having breakfast with him and he literally says to you that he, that he can't publicly endorse you, can't endorse you because your competitor is a good friend of mine. I know he's a Republican, but he's a good guy and a friend. What? The Democratic House, the Democratic House, your party that you are running under. He can't endorse you because the other party is he's a good dude and he's my friend and I can't. I can't hurt his feelings, I can't hurt my friend's feelings hurt his feelings.
Wendy :Yeah, that was an eye opener. And I mean we fought about that throughout my campaign. He and I did and I'm like listen, I'm an Illinois Democrat. He's like what does that mean? I'm like it means that leaders put their arms around their candidates and say this is my person, I'm supporting them, and say to their friends you know, this is my responsibility, right, as a party leader, this is what I do. It is not personal, it is politics. And now that person supported me in other ways but did not make a public donation, did not make a public endorsement for the integrity of the existing relationship that he had with that person.
Wendy :I have told that story dozens of times. I struggled whether I should put that story in the book or not, because I do name that person by name. They are a public figure. They were a public figure and I read that chapter out loud to a trusted friend as I was doing some editing and reviewing, and that person audibly gasped and said are you sure you want to say that? I said it's true. I'm like there are literally dozens of people who have heard me say that and that is the fight you don't see. You never expect as a Democrat that the party leader will say, yeah, I just can't endorse you, they couldn't endorse me. One of my biggest challenges was that my competitor was very well liked, but that one, that one stung and I left it in the book and I said to this person I said I've sat with this for months and and I'm very comfortable with this and if somebody has a different account then they should write their story. But but that's what happened.
Audra :So the fight that you don't see is not just the political fight that you don't know that's happening, that you don't see coming, but you also have an internal fight because you are a woman, so you have this bias that's going through your head, that you've been programmed to, that you don't even realize is happening, but it's happening to many of us. Realize is happening, but it's happening to many of us. I don't realize things are happening until I read it on a page that someone else is experiencing and then I go oh my God, that's true for me too. So that fight is going. And then you're fighting this political system that you don't know exists. So this is the fight that you don't see but is clearly happening all the time. It is the invisible fight that's happening all around us, every single day.
Wendy :It absolutely is. And one thing, audra, I would hope that anyone who shows up to your door any of the listeners here you know as a political candidate, even if you don't agree with them, just be kind. They cared enough to put on their tennis shoes and their campaign t-shirt and knock on your door in the middle of sweaty August and September because they're asking for your vote, you know, and just remember that there's battles that these people are fighting that you'll never know about. And, yeah, you might not agree with their politics, but you can respect them enough for just showing up at your door. And I, you might not agree with their politics, but you can respect them enough for just showing up at your door. And I mean, I, thankfully I had people who were kind to me and I'll never forget there was an elderly woman and you can get a really good vibe for someone at the door pretty quickly and and I just got the sense she didn't want to talk and and I handed her the flyer and I walked away and she said I need to tell you something. She said I'm going to vote for you because you showed up at my door and that matters to me and I'm like you know what? I never felt more like a candidate than when I was knocking doors and talking to people, and that was almost like my therapy.
Wendy :Every day I'm like I'm putting on my shoes, I'm putting on my t-shirt. I'm going to get this cleansing effect, because those are the people that matter, these fights that I'm continually fighting behind the scenes. I'm actually fighting them for these people. So I just needed to be grounded and go out and do that every day. But there's a million fights. You have people in your family who say the weirdest things to you. Someone told me before I started a campaign, the biggest enemy will come from within. It won't be external. And I'm like what? I didn't believe it. And then like the internal party leader who should have supported me you know a father-in-law who wouldn't support me because I'm a Democrat and like the people closest to you who have the ability to actually hurt you the most Random strangers telling you on the internet you're fat and ugly doesn't matter, they don't matter, they don't matter. But it's the internal ones that are hurting the most. That's the fight you don't see.
Audra :Well, now that I know a little bit more, if a political candidate shows up at my door I will listen. I don't think I've ever had one show up, but now, if they do, I absolutely will take the five minutes to listen about the fight that goes on on the other side of the political ads and the phone calls and the texts and whatnot, other than the annoyance that I feel on the other end because there's because you get bombarded and your mailbox gets stuffed, and but I had no clue, I had no idea. So we've talked about all the bad news and I think we, I think we're all well aware. I think, or we've been, we've been suspect. But how do we even out the playing field? I know that there is one, because there can't all be bad news. Our system is built for it to be more of a fair fight. So how do we make it more of a fair fight?
Wendy :So how do we make it more of a fair fight? You know, honestly, that's one of the reasons I wrote the book is to try and demystify what it's like to run for office for people, and I think and in doing so you start to remove some of the power from the power structures. If I tell you this is what happens in the political party system, here's what you expect. I advised a candidate a couple of weeks ago who was like do I need to do all this stuff? I'm like let me explain the difference to you between political spectacle and the other parts. You have to play the spectacle game for these and this and this reasons. And as soon as I explained it to you, I said okay, I get it, I'll do that. And come May, you shift your attention to your voters because that's all that matters.
Wendy :So, like trying to demystify it, how do we fix it? We just get more people involved. We also don't want to create systems where people are dissuaded from running and it's really hard out there. I don't care what party you're from, it is hard out there. I think there's a lot of misogyny in our culture right now. It's surfaced in like crazy, ridiculous ways and we need to be supportive of women who are running for office of all parties and make sure that we're encouraging that and not making these barriers to entry into this political system so hard that only the elite few can do it. I think that's one of the things we need to vote vote like our lives depended on it, because they do.
Wendy :Whether it's for state lawmakers who are determining state house boundaries and making sure house districts aren't gerrymandered, or reproductive rights, which are being punted to the states, or attacks on free thought and libraries and in higher education, there are things we can do and I have a lot of hope. I hope that you found that at the end of the book I try to end on a very hopeful note. Despite, like, some really cruddy things that happen. I have to have hope and I have to keep on moving. As soon as I let the bastards beat me, they've won, and I'm too much of a fighter to let them win. So I, you just can't let yourself get knocked down. But I think a lot of people in politics, especially at the national level, they just have to like just, they have to close out all the noise because there's so much of it and just you know, become almost almost characters in some way, and just a version of themselves that can move forward and do this.
Audra :Do you believe the rhetoric that all people in politics are at the top are bad, or are there good people at the top? Are there really good people at the top of the food chain that are good?
Wendy :Yeah, I absolutely believe that there are really great people in politics. Even and it's no secret I am no fan of the former president, donald Trump I even believe in his administration there are really great people trying to do good things and trying to keep him on track, and it's a tribute to your leadership. The kind of people that you surround yourself with. Were all of them good? Absolutely not. I do believe that there were some good people.
Wendy :Yes, I believe in Congress and the United States Senate and the presidency that there are fantastic people doing great things. I know people who work in the Biden administration. I am friendly with my former congressman as much. I write in the book how I didn't vote for Mitt Romney twice. It means that you know like, the presidency is held by Democrats and the House and the Senate are held by Democrats, but we're still able to get things done with Republicans, like or the House is controlled by one party and the Senate is controlled by another, but we're still. You know, one is not obstructing the other. So I absolutely see great things in individuals. Are there outliers who make us think that it's not great? Absolutely, but it's just noise. There are 435 members of Congress and 100 senators and maybe a couple of detractors that are just not awesome. I really genuinely think the vast majority of them are pretty darn good people.
Audra :So what about this idea of a third party candidate? So there's been some talk of it. I mean there's been talk about it for a long time, I mean there's. The reality is is that there are multiple pardon me, there are multiple parties in this country. They just have not been taken seriously as political candidates. There have been many that have been on the ballots for presidency but again, have not been taken seriously, only have been taken as detractors, until this year. This year there is one individual that is making some significant noise and people are starting to pay attention and say if anybody can make a run as a third party for the presidency, it's this one and it is Robert F Kennedy Jr. What are your thoughts on this? Because many people right now are thinking we need a third option.
Wendy :I definitely think we need multiple options, for sure, and I understand why the current slate is undesirable to some people. I'm going to roll it back a little bit in history. And the first year, the second time I was able to vote for president was 1992. And that is the year that George HW Bush ran for a second term. Bill Clinton was a first term candidate for presidency on the ballot and H Ross Perot was running as a third party candidate.
Audra :I remember this.
Wendy :I do remember this. It was like the whole MTV rock the vote try and get more young people to vote and all of my Gen X friends were like down with the establishment. I'm voting for Perot. And do you remember what you may or may not remember? But he wanted to simplify the tax form right, like taxes should be across the board, x percent for all people. It should be one flat tax. Let's do it Like one idea, right? I don't think that he got one electoral college vote and he got a lot of votes and he was making quite a go of it.
Wendy :I'm going to fast forward to 2016, something more modern and Evan McMullin. So, first of all, there's always a lot of people in the ballot for president, but Evan McMullin, former CIA with Utah ties, decided to run for president in 2016. Because morally, he had been a Republican and he's like I just cannot with Donald Trump, I just can't. And so he ran and made some great strides in some of the intermountain states Utah, arizona, california. He came in third in Utah and he had the most following in Utah. Evan McMullin also ran as an independent for the United States Senate in 2022 and did not win against Mike Lee.
Wendy :Here's what we know as political scientists. It is extremely challenging to win as a third-party candidate. And let me tell you why that party ID matters. It matters in ways that social scientists study how much party ID matters. It matters in ways that social scientists study how much party ID matters. You might not even be affiliated as a mainstream party participant I am not signed up for either. They love saying that, but in truth they might not be. But they often lean one way or the other. They love to declare their independence, but they still tend to vote a certain way At the end of the day.
Wendy :When it comes down to looking at candidates on the ballot, a lot of people use that party ID as a signal. I vote only for Democrats, I don't vote for Republicans or only vote for Republicans, right, and so that party ID matters. I'll vote for anybody, but this person. I cannot explain to you how important that party ID is. Still, do I think RFK Jr will get some votes? Yeah, will it be enough to make any difference? Absolutely not. But what he's signaling and he's the crazy Kennedy cousin that nobody wants anything to make any difference? Absolutely not. But what he's signaling, and he's the crazy Kennedy cousin that nobody wants anything to do with. By the way, I mean long legacy of Democrats. His uncle was president. His father was horrifically assassinated as he was running for president in 1968. So long line of strong Kennedys and they're like we don't want anything to do with you.
Wendy :But what his run is symbolizing is that we are clamoring for something different, and it's really. How do we figure out how to make space in this entrenched, encumbered, sometimes nasty political system of a two-party system? How can somebody break through? That is a monumental shift. So we get detractors. I wouldn't even call them detractors, but we get people that are trying. The Green Party or Ralph Nader ran for years, or Harry Brown ran as a libertarian. I think he's the new thing. He might get some votes. There'll be protest votes, there'll be anti-disestablishment votes, but it won't be anything that will make a difference in any state.
Audra :I think that that's both disturbing, but also people should pay attention because there are entire generations. You and I are both Gen X and I can't relate to these two old dudes on the ballot. I don't have anything in common with these two old dudes. You don't have anything in common with these two old dudes. I would love a third option. I know you would love a third option. I know you would love a third option.
Audra :But the generations below us, these millennials and these Gen Zs and these Gen Zs that are just coming up, and some of them this is their very first election to vote in they certainly don't have anything. They don't have anything in common with these two old dudes. They're like. These two guys are so out of touch. They are like our great grandfather's age. What did they know? Do they even know how to use technology? Do they know how to TikTok or whatever it is? They need somebody to relate to them. I mean, and let's face it, the boomer generation is fading out. Our generation is not very big, and I mean and we? But we are rebellious, we like to do our own thing, our own way. But these millennials and these Gen Zs are a big, big, loud voice because we taught them to be. We taught them to be individuals and loud and stand their ground and be proud of being unique and being heard. We raised them to be that way. If we don't hear them, they're going to rebel.
Wendy :I hope they do. I hope that they rise up and want to be involved. I think the systems are seen in general as politics are for old people. I really do. I have four stepchildren all in their 20. That about kills me. They don't vote because they don't think it matters If they're not voting. If these people aren't voting, they're definitely not going to run for office. In my school district there's an 18-year-old new high school graduate who's running for school board and I am his biggest fan.
Audra :Good for you. Yeah, good for you.
Wendy :I mean, I hope he gets it, I hope he gets it, I'm hoping he gets it. And so, yeah, there's an enthusiasm gap. I've heard it called an enthusiasm gap for politics. It's easy to get this crowd incensed. Our attention spans are shorter. We consume bits and bytes of information. We don't like to go in depth. How do we appeal to that group of people? How do we appeal to them enough to say I need you to get civically engaged, right? But I understand, I completely understand the sentiment that a septuagenarian and octogenarian and the top of the ticket, we, we, we got to do differently.
Audra :The power to have our voices heard.
Wendy :And it does matter, and I know that we've heard a lot that it doesn't matter because of the popular vote and the Electoral College and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what A lot of that is noise and fear mongering. I lost by seven, eight votes. 9,671 people voted for me. Had two more people in every one of my precincts voted, I would have won when you break it down that way. Had two more of my neighbors voted for me here, here, here, here. Like your vote does matter.
Wendy :My friend, suzanne Harrison, lost her first election in 2016 by three votes, three, count them three. So, yeah, we can buy into that national politics. So at the presidential level, the calculus is different, the math is different, the way that it's done is different, the system's different, but your vote matters at every other level. It matters at every level. But, yeah, we've just hit. We just need people to understand that and believe that. And there's nothing more devastating than coming so close and like, oh, 78 votes, goodness me Right.
Wendy :And I had people on the street say, literally random people say, oh well, I didn't knock doors for you because I thought you had this in the bag. I'm like I never thought I had it in the bag. How did you think that? I'm like, I never thought I had it in the bag. How did you think that? So yeah, every vote matters, every vote counts, and there's so much more on your balance than just candidates. They're major issues and, and, symbolically, the candidates that you're voting for are going to enact the measures that matter to you, right? And so, when you think about it that way, the stakes are super high.
Audra :How do they educate themselves without becoming overwhelmed? I feel it every single time that paper booklet arrives in the mail. My chest tightens and I go, oh my gosh, I have to read this whole thing. How do we break it down so we don't feel overwhelmed when that thing comes in the mail and we can educate ourselves, so we can know that we are voting appropriately and aren't just checking boxes? How do we do it?
Wendy :Yeah, I mean most candidates have websites. They're on social media. You'll start to I mean, if that's especially for younger people to follow them there. They'll start to get a really good sense of who that person is. People to follow them there, they'll start to get a really good sense of who that person is. Find out, you know, that way you're just going to need to do a little bit. I'll talk to your neighbors. If your neighbor has a political sign in their yard that I mean, that's what political, political signs don't vote, but they signal to your neighbor I'm supporting Wendy Davis. Just ask them why are you supporting that person for county council? Tell me about him. Like, have a conversation. We don't talk anymore.
Wendy :There's a great book written by Robert Putnam called Bowling Alone, talking about how our societies were so different in the 50s and 60s, with neighborhood barbecues and pinochle and bowling leagues. And just talk to your friends, talk to your neighbors, talk to the candidate, read their literature Like it's coming at you all the time. Follow them on Instagram, follow them on social and then, hopefully, when you get that booklet, it's not as overwhelming You'll have a really solid idea of what their positions are and you might be just fact checking to say like okay, do I still not want to vote for the other person? All right, yeah, I still want to vote for this person.
Audra :And Google is a great resource, Google. I tell people all the time that if I didn't have Google, I wouldn't know how to do half the stuff I do. I mean, I look things up every single day on how to figure out how to do stuff. Absolutely Otherwise I'd be lost. Wendy, this has been an amazing hour to spend with you. It's been educational. I feel so much more empowered just spending the time with you and reading through your book. If people wanted to find out more about you or where they could reach your book, where would they connect with you?
Wendy :Well, first of all, thank you, audra, for the opportunity to chat with you. I love talking about these things and I learned something from every single person that I talked to as well. But you can learn more about me at wendydavisutahcom and the book is available for purchase on Amazon or channels where you like to buy books. It would mean a lot to me if you could support your local independent bookseller or request it at your library to support those public venues. But those are the two best places. The Fight you Don't See right now. It's available on paperback and ebook. By the time of this airing. It should be available in audiobook. We could do a whole podcast on audiobook production.
Wendy :It's been delightful talking with you about themes that matter a lot to me advancing the causes of women in politics, making people aware and really in the spirit of actually encouraging them to be more involved, not to dissuade people by saying, if you want to run for office, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard in ways that you never thought it was going to be hard. Going to be hard in ways that you never thought it was going to be hard. I'm going to tell you my story. It's not going to be yours. But maybe now you'll say like, all right, I can do that, that's what. I want people to walk away from this book thinking like, all right, there's some really terrible things that happen, but you know what, now I know more and so I can do more.
Audra :And I encourage everybody, not only to reach out Wendy, read her book. It's educational, it's entertaining, it's wildly entertaining, it's heartbreaking. I read it in a night. I couldn't put it down because I felt like I was sitting with you. I felt like I was spending the afternoon with you. I felt like I was spending the afternoon with you and that was wonderful. I felt like I was hanging out with a friend, so I loved that. So, please, everybody, go and pick it up, because I promise you you will not regret it. Wendy, this is my favorite part of the show and if you listen to my show before, you will know it is because I get to shut up and not ask you questions and you get an intimate moment directly with the audience so you can leave them with a lasting thought that they can take with them throughout the day, throughout the week, that they can sit with them and just give them encouragement and whatever they need to take with them throughout the day. So the mic is yours, yeah sure.
Wendy :I want to share just one story. That's in the last chapter of the book. And I live in Utah. I like to hike.
Wendy :I'm not a fast hiker, I'm probably the slowest Never going to hike the tallest mountain peaks, the steepest ascents, and you know, sometimes I get lost.
Wendy :I often get lost, but one of my favorite things to do when I hike is to stop, look around and look how far I've come and I can no longer see the car at the trailhead. I can't even see the trail a mile down the road, and I think that's so important. No matter what journey you're on, whether it's your political journey, your professional journey, your motherhood journey, whatever journey you're on your chance or battle just stop and do a 360 and look at how far you've come and metaphorically hiking those capital steps you know, even after I had lost and pulling open those big, heavy doors was a metaphor that I used in my book. And now I'm at a point in life where I'm ready to be the person who holds the door open for someone else. I had other people open those doors for me and hold those open. So whether you're on that trail or you can be that person who is holding the door open for the person who comes after you. That's really the thought that I want to leave people with.
Audra :That's. That is a not only is that a beautiful sentiment, it's a beautiful image. So thank you, Thank you for leaving us with that, and thank you so much for spending this hour with me. I truly appreciate it. Thank you, I appreciate you as well, and I want and thank you so much for spending this hour with me. I truly appreciate it. Thank you, I appreciate you as well, and I want to thank you all again for listening and we'll see you again next time.
