Empower Your Career: Sarah Shamouelian on Negotiating Your Worth

Unlock the secrets of mastering compensation negotiations with Sarah Shamouelian, executive headhunter and director of Human Edge, in our latest episode. We delve into the gender pay gap's history and its ongoing impact. Sarah provides a roadmap for women to confidently claim their worth, navigate salary discussions, and empower themselves in both their careers and personal lives.

Negotiating your salary doesn't have to be intimidating. Learn how to turn it into a conversation that honors your professional value. Reflecting on my journey through sales and management, I reveal the silent repercussions of pay disparity and how to break the taboo around wage discussions. With strategic tools and wisdom from influential reads like "The Most Powerful Woman in the Room is You," this episode offers profound guidance for asserting your professional contributions and securing the compensation you deserve.

Key Takeaways:

• Understand the gender pay gap and its impact on women 
• Learn strategic negotiation techniques to confidently claim your worth
• Discover the importance of timing, market value, and networking in negotiations
• Gain insights from Sarah's empathetic headhunting expertise.
• Equip yourself with tools and wisdom to navigate salary discussions effectively

Why You Should Listen:
This episode is a must-listen for women in business, leadership, and those breaking barriers in their careers. Gain actionable insights and strategies to negotiate your salary and advance your career. Sarah’s expertise and experiences provide a comprehensive guide to overcoming obstacles and achieving workplace equity.

Call to Action:
Tune in to empower yourself with the skills needed to navigate compensation negotiations and secure the salary you deserve. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to elevate your career and personal aspirations.

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• Joan Jett
• Dolly Parton
• Viola Davis
• Ina Garten

Maybe you can help a girl out...***

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***One last thing...I have an interview wish list because a girl's gotta dream

• Viola Davis
• Dolly Parton
• Ina Garten
• Joan Jett

Maybe one of you can help me out!

Thank you all for supporting this show and all Women in the Arena!

Chapters

• 0:00 Gender Pay Gap History
• 8:18 Understanding and Negotiating Salary Expectations
• 25:49 Negotiating for Career Success
• 42:25 Navigating Career Moves

Transcript

Audra: 0:31

Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me again this week. This week's guest is going to educate us on a topic that we all have a great interest in. My guest this week is Sarah Samoulian, and she is a professional executive headhunter. She is the director of Human Edge and she predominantly focuses on tech firms and finance and professional services all these really high, high-level professions but her heart is with helping women develop and grow, find their best position for what they want to do and grow their career to the next level. They want to do and grow their career to the next level. She is passionate about what she does and she is here to share with us her knowledge. It is my honor and my pleasure to introduce to you Sarah. Sarah, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show.

Sarah: 1:30

Audra, thank you so much. It's great to be on the show.

Audra: 1:33

I am so excited for you to be here because we're going to talk about a topic that I have never heard spoken about out loud. I don't think that there are a lot of conversations that are had like this, and that's exactly why I wanted to have it, and what we're going to talk about is compensation. I bet everybody's ears perked up about that. Talking about compensation, I'm going to give you guys all a moment. Go get a pen and some paper, because you're going to want to take notes. Before we dive into that, we're going to get to know Sarah just a little bit more. Sarah, tell us a little bit about you. Obviously, from your accent, you're not from California, even though you live in California, so tell us a little bit about your background. Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: 2:20

You picked up the accent right, although some people say it's disappearing. But I'm originally from the UK. I've lived in a lot of different countries. I feel very much a global citizen, but right now, for the last few years, I call California home and I live here with my husband and family.

Sarah: 2:37

I work as a, as a headhunter um and I I run a company called the human edge and I my my day-to-day is focused on not just negotiation on on salary and compensation, but negotiation on on work between two parties, and I I love, I love sitting down with companies and helping them strategize and think about the people they want to hire and then, in turn, working with executives and helping them discover really what's important to them in a negotiation and then seeing that unfold. And I should also point out that obviously we're talking quite generally about the topic of compensation negotiation. It can happen a lot in um, not just in if you're being recruited, but of course in your day-to-day work when you're getting your yearly um, you know annual review and so on and so forth. So it's um, it's a topic. That's very much you know at my heart and um I and something I really care about and something that, as you mentioned, is talked about very little.

Audra: 3:42

I mean and it's so important. I mean, that is our compensation is how we, as individuals, make our worlds go round. It directly influences our family. It influences how we invest money if we have money to invest, how we take care of our future, how we support our children through college and whatever they want to do, and, not to mention, when we want to stop working. Compensation is the cornerstone of all of that, and no one pulls you aside and says you know what? This is how you talk about compensation and this is how you negotiate it. No one, never, not once in my almost 30 year career, no one has ever, ever said you know what? There's skills here that you need to learn, so why don't we talk about it? I mean, is it still weird, taboo? Oh, you don't talk about money. I mean, is that why?

Sarah: 4:36

I mean, I think there's definitely some of that in some cultures, Definitely in Western culture. There is a certain element to that that it's taboo to talk about money, and I've spoken to a number of people who realized later on in their career that they were under earning compared to perhaps the market, and I think there's a number of reasons behind that which we can unpack. I think today we're in a different space to before, thank goodness, although the numbers do show that there is still an issue in terms of fairness of compensation and especially when it comes to gender, for example, which I know is something we were going to discuss today. There are stats that show that still the gap has reduced between male and female compensation, but the stats still show that there is still a gap.

Sarah: 5:35

Something I'm seeing as a recruiter, as a head hunter in the financial space, however, is the opposite. I'm not seeing that as much. I'm seeing very strong women owning their negotiation and really sometimes even commanding salaries at least at the average of their level or sometimes even even higher as well. But I also realized that I work with high level executives who really worked hard to get where they've where they've got to, and I work it worked a lot in sectors like financial services, where there still are less women working there typically compared to men. However, I think it paints an interesting picture in terms of where we're at and probably challenges some of the preconceived notions about the current situation as well.

Audra: 6:30

Let's focus a moment on the history of this wage gap, the gender wage gap, if you will, and you had mentioned that when the compensation first started being tracked was 1979, correct, yeah, when they were looking at.

Sarah: 6:47

According to US data statistics, they started to make those comparisons from around. They took data, at least the date they actually did the research. I'm not sure, but they examined data between 1970s and today and that compensation difference at the time, women back in the 70s were earning 60% compared to their male counterparts and then more recently that's increased to over 80, nearly 90% of their male counterparts. And these are obviously averages across the US. It's covering all sectors, all jobs, all different levels, but that's what the data is showing. Why?

Audra: 7:28

did a gender pay gap exist anyway? It seems a little odd to me that that would even be a reality, because if you had men and women doing the same job, why in the world would you get paid differently?

Sarah: 7:46

That just doesn't make any sense to me executives or people who perhaps have been around for some time and they've seen the change at work. You've had tremendous change in the last 10, 20 plus years, especially in the digital era and the impact not just of AI but, before then, the impact of big data and all the rest of it. There's a lot more information out there, so we're able to unpack that a little bit more. One of the key reasons is, you know, a company, at the end of the day, always wants to make the most they can out of their employees, right? Their number one goal is to make profit in one shape or form, and you know so they're always going to. They have a bandwidth in terms of the level they want to pay a particular person they're employing. Now, ultimately, if you don't ask, you don't get. And I think, over history, what we've seen and speaking to women I know who have now addressed this ultimately they realize at some point they weren't asking. And if you don't ask, if you don't value yourself, then you're not going to get that rise. And that can apply equally across the board to not just females but also men as well. So you know one thing one of the reasons why it became interesting to me.

Sarah: 9:05

Early on in my career, before I became a recruiter, I worked in sales, so I was, you know, in the business of growing teams. I worked in selling data and economic data and media advertising, worked in a number of different teams I worked in. I was selling data and economic data and media advertising, worked in a number of different organizations. One thing I noticed when I reached that point, when I became a manager, then obviously you have access to see people's salaries and I also started to notice other people's negotiation styles and it was then I had that epiphany that I myself hadn't been asking earlier on. And there was one time when I inherited a team and I noticed that you know, hr, they actually increased my salary way beyond what I was expecting and I hadn't even asked for it. And then I realized why it was because the people, the salaries of the people I was inheriting, were, they were, they were higher than my own. So it was, I didn't feel bad about it, but I just had a realization that I haven't been keeping up with trends, I haven't been informing myself and I I didn't blame anyone for it, but I realized there was a gap, you know, in my own self-awareness, and perhaps that's the same for other people we haven't. I never discussed salary with my friends or counterparts or colleagues. You know, it was only perhaps with when I started to get a mentor or coach that I started to realize what the possibilities were.

Sarah: 10:28

Interesting book which I recommend others read, and it's by a lady. I just need to get her name, lydia Fennett, and you might have heard of it. It's the most powerful woman in the room, is you and she was. She used to work at. She used to work at Christie's the auction house and she had a similar experience that when she she was, you know, doing very well, working super hard in New York running their events business took great pride in the fact that she worked incredibly long hours and all the rest of it. And when she was sharing an apartment at the time she had roommates. And one day one of her roommates you know, I know because I'm getting by New York and going to all the art parties, art auction parties and all the rest of it and one day one of her roommates came to her and said look, you know, I'm just letting you know, I'm buying my own, I'm buying a house, I'm going to be moving out and she was shocked. She felt she thought they were on similar salaries. She thought, oh my goodness, you know I've been spending all this time and not even thinking about you know what I'm worth and what I'm doing. And the other person I think, I believe was doing a similar job to hers. I think a few people had these wake-up calls. So then she decided this whole process of self-discovery and trying to find ways, finding ways to first of all recognize your value and then be able to negotiate for what you're truly worth.

Sarah: 11:54

So I think, you know, a lot of it is down to lack of, perhaps mentorship, also taboo around talking around these topics. We also have to, you know, remind ourselves of, well, perhaps, what family dynamics we may have grown up in, that we're influenced by concepts that our grandmothers or mothers dealt with about being what being a nice girl means. You know what being a nice girl means. You know what being a good girl is about, like not asking too much, asking too many questions. And whilst we may believe, as modern women in the workplace, that we've got past this, I do believe we've subconsciously very influence can be influenced by this.

Sarah: 12:30

So to really look at what, look deep down at what the core issue is that may be blocking us, and big part of that is information. Before 10, 20 years ago, I mean, you didn't have companies like definitely 20 years ago, didn't have so much information out there glassdoor, other websites which had you have all this information on that you can access to compare salaries even in the first place. So that wasn't available. The other thing a lot of you might have I don't know if you've read the book or come across the book.

Sarah: 13:07

You know Women Don't Ask.

Sarah: 13:08

It was a book written some years back, so it's a little some of the content's a little dated, but it's still very relevant and they talk about there that this idea of when women have the information and they have access to the research, they have access to the data and they're informed and they're able to plan out a strategy around the negotiation, then the data shows very clearly that they obtain at least the same compensation as men, sometimes even more so.

Sarah: 13:40

So I think there's been quite a seismic shift. The awareness that we have now and the research we have available, I think has really helped women and also will help minorities as well really negotiate for what they're worth and think about that and also to have this. We have to take it back back a bit, to take a step back to also really truly understand what we're worth. You know, if you're, if you're a few months out of college, we know what. What are you ready to contribute what? What value do you really have in the marketplace and sort of be real about it as well? So yeah, I think that's sort of at the root of it.

Audra: 14:24

Well, I think there's also some you'd mentioned some trends and some cultural shifts that we may have, things that we may have inherited from our mothers and our grandmothers. And when I was doing some research before we were we scheduled this interview, I came across something and I want to share it with you because I thought, oh my goodness, we were being conditioned and we didn't even realize it. So I'm, I'm a Gen Xer, which means I am, I'm over 50 is what that means. And there was this commercial that came out in 1979, because I looked up the date, which means I was eight years old. I remember this commercial so clearly.

Audra: 15:01

I remember being at my grandmother's house and it was one of those commercials that they showed in the middle of soap operas and it was for this drugstore perfume and it had this jingle that everybody still remembers and it was set to this little jazzy music. And for those that don't know what I'm talking about, I'll give you the description of what this jingle was describing. So it was a woman who, literally, she got up, she got the kids ready to go, and this is all set to music. So she got up, got the kids ready to go, and this is all set to music. So she got up, got the kids ready to go to to school, she did a load of laundry, she got herself ready, she took the kids to school, she went to work all day. She came home, she got the kids ready for bed, she made dinner and then at the end of it it ends with I'll never let you forget. You're a man, wink, wink, wink. So here's the whole premise of this is that you're responsible for doing all of this and making sure that your man is satisfied. But not once did it say anything about your value, your worth, what you can negotiate nothing. It was just. These are your responsibilities and that happened.

Audra: 16:22

I was eight years old and I can. I can sing you the jingle right now. I will spare everybody that displeasure, but everybody, go look it up it is. Um, if you go look it up it is, if you go look it up on YouTube, is the name of the perfume was Ajoli and you could buy it at any drugstore. And if those are that are in the same demographic as I am, I know that that jingle is going through your head right now and I think about that and I'm like, wow, Culturally, it was ingrained in us and we didn't even know.

Audra: 17:01

So things started happening and we let them happen because we didn't know that there was another way to do it. And it hasn't been since we've gotten older and started to take a pause and take an examination and go wait a minute, wait a sec. I should be getting paid more, but it's a really uncomfortable conversation to have, and I say all of this to say or explain that culturally, since we weren't taught how to have these conversations, it's going to be uncomfortable. How do we have these conversations? They're the right conversations to have these conversations. It's going to be uncomfortable. How do we have these conversations? They're the right conversations to have. How do we have them, even though we know going into them is super uncomfortable?

Sarah: 17:47

Yeah, absolutely, and I think there's also linked to that. There's a perception around negotiation that it has to be in a certain way. There's a perception and this concept will be useful to both useful to not just women but also to men as well, who probably also have suffered from this in different ways, who probably also have suffered from this in different ways but, for example, the concept, when we think of the word negotiation, we think of something perhaps hostile, we think of perhaps what we've been conditioned to see in the movies of some sort of legal dispute or something where it's a winner-takers-all approach, where you're literally in the gladiator ring and one person wins and the other person will lose. That's the old sort of way of seeing negotiation and perhaps you could say that that old notion pairs very much with more of a direct, more masculine energy approach to doing business and rather than something which now we're seeing in negotiation, which is a much more collaborative approach. So the best negotiation is when both parties win right, whether it's salary, whatever, whatever the situation where both parties win, what does that look like for salary negotiation? Well, they get to keep and maintain a fantastic employee and the employee gets to, you know, get the salary that they were hoping for or feel that they're worth or at least comparable to the market, and they may get you know all the other benefits that they want, whether it's a flexible working working, a working from home schedule or hybrid office structure or any other thing that they may want. To negotiate by realizing that negotiation is really about win-win, then that can really help us get over any notions of negotiation being something that's hostile, that perhaps we might not be ready to deal with, and to realize that actually negotiation is something we're doing all the time, every day, not just around compensation. We're negotiating with all sorts of people, family members, something we're doing all the time, every day, not just around compensation. We're negotiating with you know all sorts of people, family members, and we're negotiating with you know people, um, people for whether it's our personal finance, whatever it happens to be, so to to.

Sarah: 19:58

I think the concept of negotiation has changed a lot and has come, come on a lot, and there's a book, but there's a book called you. Might's a book called you might have read it called Getting to yes, which very much demonstrates that it talks about. It doesn't use the word, it doesn't really talk about male or female negotiation strategies, but it talks about different styles of negotiation, the old way being very much this hard way now, and then the sort of more softer approach was is collaborative, and then there's another way on top of that which takes you to another level. I won't sort of go into a massive detail, but I just think that the, the concept, the topics around negotiation have come on so much.

Sarah: 20:38

To quote a uh, a teacher of mine called batya solomon. She runs a very nice used to be a head hunter actually and she runs a very nice course. She used to be a headhunter actually and she runs a very nice course online called Prosperity Principles. She's about helping people manifest more in their life and one thing she talks about is really looking for the win-win on both sides. So that means there's not if in any good negotiation, if one person is walking away feeling like they've lost in the negotiation, that always plants a seed for something negative later on. It walking away feeling like they've lost in the negotiation, that always plants a seed for something negative later on. It's going to come back one way or another later down the line. Either the employer employee is going to feel dissatisfied or have that some sort of resentment or feel that issues around unworthiness or whether it whatever happens to be, or the employer might feel that they've whether it's overpaid or whether they've whatever it may be, they may have some issues there that may come up later down the line. So you always want that win-win to obviously come up and that lends itself very well to, perhaps, traits that are inherently, maybe inherently what you might call female traits or more female energy, because both men and women can have male and female energies. Right, it can be a balance of the two.

Sarah: 21:51

So I think that's where we are right now and that leads itself very much to the qualities that a lot of women may underestimate in themselves, which are around. You know you would negotiate very differently, for example, with somebody you're going to have to work with, long term versus a quick transaction. You know, whether you're buying a car or even real estate, you're not really going to see the person again. Or you're going to negotiate very differently with your employer or somebody you're going to work with or have to see again and again, again. And you know one thing to keep in mind well, you know some people say well, you know the male way of doing things in the past, which might have been, you know, very seen as more hostile, more aggressive, very direct, in the past, when women were increasing more and more in the workplace. When they took on those traits, they were sometimes criticized for them, they were seen as bossy or they were described as aggressive. Or they were described as aggressive or they weren't liked.

Sarah: 22:47

And there's research that shows for women to do well in negotiation and some people might not like me saying this but for people to do well in negotiation, especially female negotiators, they need to be liked, right, and that sounds sexist in a way, right, but actually what? For me, what I believe that does is when we're put under pressure in life, when we are encouraged to be creative and think beyond ourselves, that produces great results. So I think women have, especially in the last 10, 20 years, we've been developing in this, really, really re-engaging with ourselves and our strengths and discovering that. I think it's on us now to take that forward within organizations. I feel that actually it's what some people might see as a disadvantage. It actually becomes an advantage.

Audra: 23:36

I have seen these types of trends working within various organizations myself as well, where you're being a little bit more thoughtful and more forward thinking as to what is going to be the response or the reaction if I come in hot and aggressive, what is going to be the fallout from this conversation? Or, like you said, maybe I can come in and consider all parties involved and not only what do we want to get out of this particular communication, but what do we want to get out of it going forward, because in these negotiations you have to continue to work with these individuals or teams. You don't want it to be hostile or people to be resentful or think, oh, she got this or he got this because they did this arm twisting, and I mean that's not a very collaborative environment. If that's how you're perceived and I do understand the whole women have to be liked and while that makes it makes me particularly uncomfortable because it feels unfair and it is it is absolutely unfair. There's no denying that that is an unfair situation. That doesn't make it any less real.

Audra: 25:01

Exactly so, use it to your. What I'm hearing is use it to your advantage and still get what you want. Exactly, use it to your advantage. What I'm hearing is use it to your advantage and still get what you want Exactly.

Sarah: 25:10

Use it to your advantage, still get what you want and then pay it forward because it's going to help somebody further down the line. You know, I think a lot of us saw perhaps we ourselves when we first came into the world of work. You know we might have got so far with more of a direct confrontational approach, but it does only and this is a truth for both men and women right, but it only gets you so far. The difference between men and women is there's research that shows that men can get away with it a little bit longer than women can, but we all need to get that. So the advantage women have is they're getting there first. That's how I see it. That's how I see it. As women have is they're getting there first.

Audra: 25:47

That's how I see it. That's how I see it, and you know I agree. Like I said, use what you've got for your advantage, and it's also been brought to my attention through research and talking with you Everything's negotiable. It's not just compensation. You can negotiate that you want the last two weeks of the year off every single year, besides your regular PTO, a signing bonus or even what people would call quote unquote a golden parachute if something happens down the line that you've already negotiated your severance package up front.

Sarah: 26:22

I mean everything's possible, everything's on the table, and the more you know about. The key to being in the best position to negotiate all of that in a way that is beneficial to both you and the company is to really understand a few key things, not just what you're worth in the market, but also really understand and this may be obvious to others, and if you're listening to this and you're nodding your head and go, this is really obvious then perhaps this is for you to make sure other people are aware of this, because it's not obvious for everybody but to really do your. Do your research, not just on what you're worth in the market, but also understand, really have empathy on a business level to work for where the business is at. So is the company doing well in the markets? It's in? Have they just had some good news? Is the timing right for this negotiation? If the timing is not right, it doesn't mean you don't do it, but you might just be planting the seeds. It might be that, oh, they're not going to say yes right now. We've just had, they've just laid off some people. There's so many things that can come up that make you think now is not the right time. You should always ask, because it's going to plant the seeds for the next round, the next negotiation you have, even if you don't get exactly what you want this time. So you should always ask, but you go forward with that, with that, that knowledge, and also to think big and without sounding a cliche.

Sarah: 27:46

Sometimes we think we want to negotiate for the next level, when we might be able to make the jump to two levels, and we just haven't asked or put our interests out there. And once you know people and most people, most managers, are busy, they want to just make sure they've got all of their pressures. They might not just know or be aware that that is your intention and so you know. I would encourage people to, when they're negotiating for example, not just salary but also their position to think about okay, what are two, three levels about this? Look like, have leverage. So know what your market value is, know how likely it is that you'll get similar or better offers.

Sarah: 28:28

As a recruiter, I don't like. It's not like something we enjoy dealing with counter offers, but the reality is that that's something that's out there, right, and actually, you know, I don't say we don't enjoy, we're used to it, but the reality is that that can happen. And so you know, speak to recruiters, see what your value is. Speak to a recruiter you trust, and speak to a recruiter. They're not the only source. Of course, you can do a lot of this information yourself, but what a good recruiter will help you understand, even directly or indirectly, is where the market is right now for their clients.

Sarah: 29:05

So are we in a what we call like like? Are we an employer driven market or are we a candidate driven market? Just after COVID so 2022, it was very candidate driven. It was extremely candidate driven, so that meant salaries across the board. Companies were overpaying, should we say, based on, perhaps, market value generally, on average, which is a very different market to perhaps where we're in now, which is a bit more balanced and more employer driven. And you see that in how candidates are negotiating, they feel that.

Sarah: 29:35

So you need to be aware of where you are in that cycle as well, because it's usually either one or the other in terms of recruitment, recruitment trends. You know recruiters typically don't want it too much one way or the other because it can bring other complexity. But we're not talking about what's good for recruiters, we're talking about what's good for you right now and then also to be thinking about who are you negotiating with? Obviously, sometimes there's many parties involved. There's your immediate boss, there's HR, there's is above that, and not be afraid. Don't be afraid If you're tall, if you're made to believe that what you're asking for is going beyond the standard, don't let that stop you, because we don't know for sure, you don't have access to all the information and sometimes that can be self-limiting. Or some companies, especially very good at giving. I know other companies, you know there's great companies out there, but naturally companies want to retain their employees. So there is a. Every company has a level of cool aid that their, their employees are drinking, wrongly or rightly. It's nothing, it's just how it is. It brings. It brings teams together, it unites people. They have to do it. But know that.

Sarah: 30:48

One thing I realized as a recruiter when I moved from being a salesperson and a head of sales then into recruitment, is you have a bird's eye view on everything. So suddenly you see you, all the companies in a particular industry, in a very different way and you realize some companies where you may have worked to a certain level. You know, somebody asked me at the time God, would you move to that competitive. I'm like no way because we've got the best this and this, because you're drinking. You're drinking the Kool-Aid, right, and there's nothing wrong with that, just is what it is. But when we're sort of got that, we do have blinkers on when we're in a company. We have to always remember that. So it's so important to network, not just believe what your company tells you about your competition, because the reality is it's always different and I see that as a recruiter. I think actually that that company we used to think was was the worst thing on earth. Our competitors they're actually. They're actually really good to the employees you know, or whatever it may be. It's just an example. I'm not naming any particular companies here, but that that that's the reality. That's the reality there. So we have to be aware of aware of that.

Sarah: 31:50

And then other things to really think about as well is not just who's involved, but always be negotiated. I think everyone should always be negotiating. How people perceive you in your day-to-day is at work, especially because these are the people you're negotiating with, are people you're probably going to see on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. How they see you in the day-to-day is going to influence their negotiation strategy with you If they see that you're somebody who has clear boundaries and is confident in what they do and obviously the results speak for themselves. You have to be able to demonstrate your value as well. I'm talking here to executives who know they've given their value to the organization and they're just not seeing the increases they want. I'm not talking to somebody who's like two months in the job and still has to prove themselves. It's a different situation and that involves different challenges. But even that there's negotiation because you're setting yourself up for future negotiations.

Sarah: 32:49

So, even if you know right now that now's not the time to ask for that increase, think about your next year, be setting yourself up for that. You really have to plan far out and I'm sure, audra, with all your experience, you have a lot of experience of that and thinking about that in terms of working in big corporates, but that's really the reality and really kind of have a mental health check in terms of where am I in terms of my self-worth, my value, where I see myself, any self-limiting beliefs. Take the time to go into that with a coach or mentor and really go, really, really dive into that, and I think that's something to always be, you know, be keeping in mind. Sometimes, like I said before, like I've stressed before, if we don't ask, we don't get, so we're not going to. It's very it can happen that things get landed on play to you.

Sarah: 33:46

But generally speaking, you know, if you ask, if you see people being promoted in your organization, get to know them, ask them what they do, what did they do to do that?

Sarah: 33:56

Reach out to find especially women who have been successful or men. But it's sometimes nice to hear from a woman as a female executive ask them say can I take you to coffee, coffee anywhere you want, I want to get to the most people. Get to know you and understand you know, you know how you got to where you, where you're at. Most people would love to be able to help others and want that opportunity. So there's a saying that we are the sum of the five people we surround ourselves with. Who we spend our time with is important, and that goes also not just in terms of with or who we spend our time with is important, and that goes also not just in terms of colleagues or who we marry or who we have as friends, but also what are we consuming, what are we reading. If you're able to raise your negotiation consciousness or negotiation knowledge on a daily basis, then you're already playing above the average in terms of negotiation skills.

Audra: 34:49

Well, you said and mentioned about reading and educating yourself and leaning more into knowledge as well as your strengths. I read an article just a couple of weeks ago and I think it might've been the Wall Street Journal, I don't recall, but it might have been and it very clearly said that the trends right now are, in order to get ahead, in order to get the income that you want to make, you're going to have to leave your current firm. It was very clearly written out in this article that they basically were saying your current organization isn't going to pay for loyalty. You're literally going to have to leave, have somebody else pay what you're worth and then you may come back to your current firm. That happens all the time.

Audra: 35:42

I want to understand what you think about that. When I think through that logically, that sounds insane. Why would you do that? If you're going to return to the same organization, why would that organization want you to leave in the first place? I mean nuts. So I want you to respond, because I read this article and I thought this sounds backwards.

Sarah: 36:04

Right, I mean, I think as well it sounds slightly sensational right as well. In terms of the topic, it does happen. There are those instances that it happens. There is a view that you're going to get the biggest salary increases when you move, largely, of course, you've got the leverage there when you're making that move and a lot of recruiters will probably tell when you're making that move, and a lot of recruiters will probably tell you that, and some people have a lot of evidence to where that's the case, where they're going to get those increases when they move. However, there's two elements to that. One is I've personally seen both of the personal experience and, um and this is very this is not something that is in a headhunter's interest, but in a person, one-to-one in their interest. Actually, you can make incredible increases in your own firm, and there's people who've done that, but you have to have a game change and there has to be some real reason behind it. It's not just yes, I think the article is right if you're talking about standard promotion, perhaps within the same level field, you want to stay in that same particular capacity. Um, perhaps have the next level up. There may be a case for that, that your the salary increases are not going to be the same jumps that you would get if you, if you move, because, of course, an employer, if they're bringing somebody and they know that you're going to make a move, it needs to be worth it because you've got all the. It's a great opportunity. It can be a great opportunity, but it can also there's a lot of risk involved. You've got all the setup again. Sometimes you have to build your client base again because you might have certain non-competes. There's a lot of risk involved. There's a lot of uncertainty. You you have to prove yourself again, so that jump has to be worthwhile. However, I've seen people who've done tremendously well by creating new businesses within their own current organization, but that involves real courage and a specific approach.

Sarah: 37:57

I mentioned the book, the book earlier, which I find quite inspiring um, women in their careers any, any stage in their career to read is the one I mentioned, uh, by lydia fannett. The most powerful woman in their career to read is the one I mentioned by Lydia Fannett. The most powerful woman in the room is you and what she describes how. I loved hearing about her journey and I've seen this to some extent with my own journey when I was in sales as well that she actually, when she was working at Christie's and she talks about this in her book she realized she was only gonna.

Sarah: 38:27

You know it was going to be hard for her to get the time shifts she wanted, because so often when you're working for a big auction house, they, you know the, you can imagine it's a big boutique, it's very high. Um, you know there's a lot of, there's a lot of prestige to working for an organization like Christie's. You know you go to the parties I know this because I, one of my first jobs were working at Sotheby's in London um, you go to the parties. There's the all the, you know a lot of famous people coming to the auctioneers. If that's your bag, that gets you excited. There's a lot of glamour to it to a certain extent. So the company, you know, quite understandably, would use that in its employer employees of culture, would maximize that in its employer employees sort of culture, would maximize that in their, their and how they they manage their employees.

Sarah: 39:11

And, um, she realized she was going to have to do something really quite, quite different. She talks to to get that increase and what she does is she creates a business case to. Actually, she was incredibly successful at her job, which was managing events, but she actually creates a business where she takes the events part of Christie's from being a cost into a revenue generating business. So if you're in a position like that, it's really quite interesting how she talked about the negotiation process she went through. She went, she realized, she worked out who her, who her champions were going to be. She realized there was a new director of marketing who looked like you know they were going to be quite impactful in the organization, so she got his or her blessing. She also managed to get herself an offer account, an offer that she could bring to her boss as well. So she was incredibly.

Sarah: 40:04

I mean, it was very it's very interesting to read. It sort of can wake us all up into uh, you know how we may manage ourselves on a day-to-day basis. And she did it and she, I think, at least tripled her salary in the process. Triple quadrupled, they, they offered her a huge increase in salary because of this business. And then they even held back and said, said oh, you know, if you, if you, if you achieve the success that you're talking about in the first six months, then we'll give you the global title and she insisted she'd have no global title right now. Thank you very much. And and so, just reading her story, I think there's ways we can apply that in our just reading her story, I think there's ways we can apply that in our own lives.

Audra: 40:50

What I'm hearing is a lot of invest in yourself. You're already working hard. Choose your hard. Choose your hard. Invest in yourself, prove your worth, but have a strategy moving forward. Definitely negotiate with your current employer, but have a strategy moving forward. Definitely negotiate with your current employer, but then also don't be myopic and look outside of that. You never know what might be out there and negotiate there too, because what you've done within your current environment you can use to demonstrate what you can do, and ultimately, that's what we paid for. Is what can you do for me? What have you done for me lately? That's the exchange of the employee-employer relationship. You give something to me, I give you money.

Sarah: 41:37

Exactly, we need to be aware of the market.

Audra: 41:39

You just have to prove Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, and yes, be aware of the market and understand what's out there. Again, don't be myopic, because when you have, when you're in a certain organization, you, you drink that Kool-Aid. You can't help it. I mean, it's just they. They hand it out to you every two weeks. Here's your dose of Kool-Aid. But be open minded. You never know. There might be something out there that you like even more, or it may prove that you're absolutely in the right place, that you should be. But invest in it is what I'm hearing is invest in yourself.

Sarah: 42:17

Do your homework and don't be afraid to ask Absolutely and keep that sense of realism. I think in the last few years we've seen um different roles coming to the market depending on where the investor cycle is. So sometimes, you know, we can see a lot of shiny, sparkly objects out there and it seemed, can seem to us that moving, changing roles, is going to be the best thing. We have to be just really do our due diligence on that and know what cycle we're in. So if it's a cycle where it's a cycle in terms of investment that's very favorable to startups, for example, there's going to be a lot of startup roles out there coming your way. Now we know a high proportion of those startups. Some of them you could find the unicorn, but some of them are not going to be that. So, especially speaking to those in the corporate world, you have to really do your due diligence there, um, because you know um, it might be that you're. You should explore that and have that conversation. But the real work you're going to do is with your own organization or it might be time to move.

Sarah: 43:24

But I have I see a lot of um people who jumped um into quite risky startups and have find it very hard to then make their next move. So it's something to keep in mind. Um, I'm a big believer in leaping forward and I've definitely done that myself and felt the benefit and pain from it, but it has to be. It's not something I would advise everybody to do for the sake of it. There has to be a reason behind it, and it shouldn't be that you're running away from something. It should be that you're wanting to move to something new. I know that's not really the topic of what we're here to discuss, but I think it does fit in with negotiation, because you do need to be able to compare and contrast what else is out there to be able to effectively negotiate as well.

Audra: 44:22

Very happy to have this conversation because I've never had one like this out loud.

Audra: 44:27

In the 30 plus years that I've been in corporate America, I've never had this conversation.

Audra: 44:33

No one has ever taught me. It's been through trial and error most of it error and just trying to move forward and ask a bunch of questions, which is exactly why I wanted to have this conversation, so that maybe others out there that are thinking I think I want to move forward or I think I should get paid more, don't know how to do this. I wanted to at least give you a small roadmap in order to do that, and inviting Sarah here, as she is an expert in this, is and hopefully will help in that endeavor for all of you, as you're trying to move forward. So, sarah, this is the part of my show that is my absolute favorite, because I get to shut up. I don't have to ask you questions anymore, I get to step back from the mic and allow you to have an intimate moment directly with the audience, so you can leave them with any lasting thought that you'd like for them to carry with them throughout the day. So the mic is yours.

Sarah: 45:34

Thank you. I think my last thought on this would be teach this to other people. So, whatever you learn about negotiation, open up the channels of communication. You will find mentors, you will find people to help you. Find people you can help early on in their career. Perhaps you have children. Teach your children how to negotiate, both your sons and daughters. Help them negotiate so it's not intimidating for them, so it becomes a natural part of life. Help them when they're arguing. If children are arguing, help them negotiate with each other. Help them practice this early on. And that's the way we move forward is also by the more we share what we know with others, the more we open up those channels of communication, and then it becomes not just about okay, what am I going to win from this, but then how is what I'm learning going to then also make things better?

Audra: 46:28

for the future as well. Thank you for that guidance because, like I said, these are fundamentals that we find out by accident. Let's do it on purpose. If the audience is interested in getting in contact with you, wanting to learn more about your services or just ask you questions, where can they contact you?

Sarah: 46:48

at LinkedIn like any good headhunter, I'm very present on LinkedIn, so they can find me on LinkedIn. Sarah Shmulian, that's the best way to reach out to me. They can connect with me, contact me there. I'm happy to take any conversations forward.

Audra: 47:04

I will make sure that your LinkedIn profile is in the show notes so it'll make it easy for people to come and find you and talk to you and ask you questions. I will tell everybody who's listening. Sarah is not only a wealth of knowledge, but she is an empathetic headhunter. She is an amazing recruiter. Her purpose in life is to make sure that you get to where you want to go next. That is not always the case with every headhunter, but I will tell you Sarah is the real deal, so make sure that you reach out to her, ask her questions and you never know, she might be able to find you your dream job. Never know. Sarah, thank you so much for being here. I cannot thank you enough for being willing to have this conversation. Thanks very much, audrey.

Sarah: 47:49

I really appreciate it. It's been a real pleasure and I love what you're doing with Women in the Arena.

Audra: 47:54

Thank you very much and thank you for being part of those women here in the arena with all of us, and I want to thank all of you for listening and we'll see you again next time.